CCCP's Workshop.

[Pandemoniak]

Its a future where we land on a living planet who defends itself from colonization by sending aggressive telepathic worms, Maniac, to me thats a real clarification about the needs of psychiatrist, though I still believe a good worker who know that he produces his own existence and environment wont need a psychiatrist.

About the Wealth thing, contrary to Lucky, I still think that valuing Wealth wont lead us anywhere than to a hell. If people and government value wealth that much, they will soon call for Free Market to raise more and more energy credits. Remember in what excesses the "lack of energy" -- while they already had plenty -brought the USA back on Old Earth.

And about the OOC comparaison, remember Knowledge has +1 Eff, whihc makes it very profitable for PK, while the difference of economy (+1) is not huge by itself (+1energy per base). I let you make the calcutation, but this +1 Wealth against this +2 Knowledge / +1 Efficiency would need a really disproportionate faction to be scientifically more efficient.
Moreover, +2Knowledge means a 20% "discount" on tech prices, meaning the more you advance, the better efficient it becomes.
I hope I was clear.

[GeneralTacticus]

The +1 Economy bonus is not very effective on it's own, true, but if combined with a GA it provides the benefits of FM, and if combined with FM it brings in huge amounts of energy.

[Pandemoniak]

Past the +2 Economy, it only brings commercial additional revenues, which is not such a big deal. As I said, it can be intersting, but in a very disproportionate way.

[GeneralTacticus]

Past the +2 Economy, it only brings commercial additional revenues, which is not such a big deal. As I said, it can be intersting, but in a very disproportionate way.

The extra commerce income is hardly unimportant, unless you plan on going to war with every single faction simaltaneously.


EDIT: oh, and it also creates extra energy on base squares, but that is TRULY unimportant.

[Kirov]

Pande, how do you want to achieve +2 ECON without neither FM and Wealth?

[Drogue]

I think he's arguing that you don't need it (+2 Econ that is)

[Pandemoniak]

You indeed dont need it, despite you can play with. I'm just pointing that if Wealth make a better Science rate than Knowledge, you faction is totally disproportionate. It can happen. But most of the time, the best science rate is at FM+Knowledge, except for huge factions, where its green+Knowledge.

About the commerce thing, when you have 40 bases more than the biggest opposite faction, its pointless to have a better commerce rate, since you dont have commerce at all.
Moreover, the Hive and/or the Believer have a slight tendancy to destroy other factions, which makes one less faction to trade with. It doesnt happen at the beginning of the game, but when you reach midgame or late game, you have usually one or two factions left (beside your own).

[GeneralTacticus]

You indeed dont need it, despite you can play with. I'm just pointing that if Wealth make a better Science rate than Knowledge, you faction is totally disproportionate. It can happen. But most of the time, the best science rate is at FM+Knowledge, except for huge factions, where its green+Knowledge.

Like you said, it depends on the situation. However, if we go Planned, we would probably get far better research from Wealth + GA in our core bases than from Knowledge.

About the commerce thing, when you have 40 bases more than the biggest opposite faction, its pointless to have a better commerce rate, since you dont have commerce at all.

It doesn't make it any less valuable in absolute terms, especially since the bases that can take the most advantage of it will be getting most of the commerce.

Moreover, the Hive and/or the Believer have a slight tendancy to destroy other factions, which makes one less faction to trade with. It doesnt happen at the beginning of the game, but when you reach midgame or late game, you have usually one or two factions left (beside your own).

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

[Pandemoniak]

Like you said, it depends on the situation

I didnt say that. It depend of the way you play SMAC. I prefer an industrial style than a commercial one, and my faction is always adapted to this. I'll make a save and show what Demo/Planned/Knowledge/Eudaimonia can do though.

It doesn't make it any less valuable in absolute terms, especially since the bases that can take the most advantage of it will be getting most of the commerce.

Im not exactly sure of how the commerce income is determined, but IIRC, its the first base of your faction and the first base of each other faction, and their wealth determine the trade income. While a commercial bonus would improve this income for the bases linked (meaning for the same #bases that the opponent have), knowledge will improve efficiency (allowing you thus a higher rate of research with no penalties) and save energy and decrease the cost of research. it is obvious that knwoledge favors science and wealth favor EC , I cant beleive you argue on that.

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

Well, where do you think they get their weapons ? :nasty: And anyway, theres always a couple of factions whom you know you cant trade with.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Like you said, it depends on the situation. However, if we go Planned, we would probably get far better research from Wealth + GA in our core bases than from Knowledge.

I haven't ever found that personally, as Pande said, a +1 Econ rating isn't worth much, its just when you get +2 that you get large bonuses. (BTW what's GA? )

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

Either that or you are a more aggressive player than Pande. I usually find most factions get eliminated by the Hive or the Believers, because i don't usually attack anyone until the mid-game.

[Pandemoniak]

Ga = golden age

[Kirov]

Pande, even if at very large empire (40+ bases) indeed Effic is the main factor, in our situation is far more better to have +2 Econ than +2 Res and +1 Effic.

Drogue, GA means Golden Age (+2 Growth, +1 Econ at this base). With GA we can have the same bonuses as FM, but Wealth is crucial in this plan.

[Drogue]

Ahhh... but is it better to have many specialists to get Golden Age with Wealth to +2 Econ, or is it better to have those specialists as librarians or workers with Knowledge and the +2 Res, +1 Eff? Personally, I would favour the latter.

[Maniac]

Pandemoniak, ok, Wealth might be a less good choice than Knowledge for the CCCP ideals, and a human player is able to survive against the AI without +2 Eco, but if you want any of your ideals become reality, you need to make compromises with Free-Marketeers who want +2 Economy under any circumstance. GA+Wealth seems the only method to do so.

[Earwicker]

Achieving GA with 20% psych but without specialists should be possible in a few years, once we have [list=1][*]lifted energy restrictions[*]tidall harnesses[*]boreholes[/list=1]

Before that, not many of our bases will GA without specialists, so Drogue's point is well-made. In the meantime, the industrial bonus of wealth is what makes it most appealing - combined with planned we have a great opportunity to expand our infrastructure, readying ourselves for the potential GA phase.

As for the social side, I always envisioned that the benefits of a golden age would benefit all strata of society (including the drones) so do not consider it rife with injustice. Wealth=prosperity. (ack, now I sound like a politician . . . )