Next ACDG - faction start positions (moved from "Darsnan as Game Creator" thread)

[Maniac]

Googlie:

I submit that if we are going to direct the CMN as to how we want the start locations determined, it should be obligitory for all the debatees to start ten games with these factions and, as i say, open up the game thru the SE after 1 turn to see just how the game mechanics interprets start positions.

I have done so. I created random large maps with the average settings we decided upon in the world poll. I did 7 tests for 7 factions (the four human teams, and the Hive, Believers and Pirates, proposed for the AI spots), each time put in a different order and faction slot in case that would make a difference.

These are the average results of 49 starting positions:
Number of unity pods in HQ base radius or just one square outside: 3.43
Rainy squares in HQ base radius: 1.02
Rocky squares in... (idem): 1.40
River squares: 2.08
Nutrient bonuses: 0.20 (before pod popping)
Mineral bonuses: 0.14 (idem...)
Energy bonuses: 0.20
Fungal squares: 4.24

Only 7 tests for each faction are of course too few to make any decent statement, but on first sight there doesn't seem to be any significant statistical difference between the results of the factions. My guess is that if more tests would be done, all the faction averages (except those of the pirates - they're a special case of course) would converge to one number. Even if there would be a difference, it would most likely be somewhere deep in the decimals, and thus of no true importance.

Originally posted by Googlie
You'd see that Morgan is almost always started with a river and a rocky tile in the base start location, and almost always pops a nut as a first podpop (whereas all other factiuons almost always pop a monolith with the first podpop)

I haven't seen that. Here are the results of Morgan:

average # of pods: 3.71
Rainy: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, average: 0.14
Rocky: 0, 2, 4, 1, 3, 0, 2, average: 1.71
River: 0, 0, 4, 0, 3, 3, 2, average: 1.71
Nutrient: 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, average: 0.29
Min: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, average: 0.00
Energy: 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, average: 0.29
Fungus: 3, 2, 6, 2, 2, 1, 5, average: 3.00

It varies a bit with the general results of all factions - sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. But again: that's completely normal with only 7 tests. Most likely it would converge to a same number. The same with unity pods. I haven't seen more nuts than monoliths appearing out of the unity pods near Morgan Industries.

So at least based on this small test, I don't see any strong evidence which seems to support a theory of different starting positions between the varying factions, or Morgan more than others starting with a river and rocky tiles.

[jtsisyoda]

Asking me if I know what turn advantage is doesn't actually make much of a point, Maniac. If you have a point, make it.

[Googlie]

I'm running a test to see if start position for Morgan is influenced by mapsize and faction mix - ten starts with each combo (but I'll exclude the Aliens and pirates) - so unless I get fed up (or cts) I'll run (I think) 5 (map sizes - although I have 3 larger coded into my alphax.txt) x 6 (number of additional factions in addition to Morgan) x 10 (number of available factions to choose from excluding Morgan)

So far I've only partially completed the smac set (original 7, 2 map sizes - Huge and Large, 10 times each run)

I'll keep you posted

[Nubclear]

See, this is the point where setting up the game becomes unfun.

"Well, I think we'll have to manually calculate 10 million places of pi in order to ensure a fair chance for all factions...."

[Kody]

The 10 million places of pi is nessacry. We of course want to make sure the map is well rounded.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I dont like the idea of preprograming each AI's relationship with Human Factions, it strips the game of dipolcatic interations. Rather the getting to chose who you will try to butter up and who you will betray the preprogramed hatreds take away any chance to determine your relations with the AI for yourself.

We Morgans will be trying to trade with the AI's, the Spartans will be trying to Concour them, why should we be be penalized with Factions that out and out hate us (for no reason other then the CMN made them that way), We deserve the oportunity to bribe them into trade negotiations just as the Spartans retain their ability to Concour all of them regardless of what diplomatic status the CMN gives them.

Just keep all the AI diplomacy behaviors nutral, let them be desided by the ACTIONS of other factions only.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Kody
The 10 million places of pi is nessacry. We of course want to make sure the map is well rounded.

:groan:

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Googlie
Ah - the AI "pushovers"

What do the teams want from the AI?

Sparta:

want - builders/researchers, who will grow fast, but will be weak militarily, so that conquering them will be easy

PKs, Drones, University, Cult

don't want: Strong military competitors or hard-to-take-out defensive factions

Hive, Believers, either alien faction, Pirates

Angels:

want - research powerhouses, so that probing them (and after infiltrating, tech-share benefits) will be mammoth

University, CyCon,

don't want - militaristic factions that will threaten them

Hive, Believers, either Alien faction, Pirates

Morgan:

want - Friendly builders, who will create megacities for super-profitable trade

PK's, University, Drones, Hive

don't want - Factions that don't like FM or Wealth and that are aggressive by nature

Believers, Cult, Pirates, either Alien faction

Gaians:

Not sure. Factions that plant lotsa forests so that Gaian envoys have plenty trees to run naked through? Come on, Gaians, help me out. What are you looking for in AI factions? Who don't you want?

So the lowest common denominator is:


PeaceKeepers,
University,
Drones,


G

I like it, Googlie.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I dont like the idea of preprograming each AI's relationship with Human Factions, it strips the game of dipolcatic interations. Rather the getting to chose who you will try to butter up and who you will betray the preprogramed hatreds take away any chance to determine your relations with the AI for yourself.

We Morgans will be trying to trade with the AI's, the Spartans will be trying to Concour them, why should we be be penalized with Factions that out and out hate us (for no reason other then the CMN made them that way), We deserve the oportunity to bribe them into trade negotiations just as the Spartans retain their ability to Concour all of them regardless of what diplomatic status the CMN gives them.

Just keep all the AI diplomacy behaviors nutral, let them be desided by the ACTIONS of other factions only.

I completely agree with Impaler in this. How can game be fun if all diplomatic relations are already predetermined? This way we are forced to play the way CMN set us to do. It is a bad idea .

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
so unless I get fed up (or cts) I'll run (I think) 5 (map sizes - although I have 3 larger coded into my alphax.txt) x 6 (number of additional factions in addition to Morgan) x 10 (number of available factions to choose from excluding Morgan)

Good luck!

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
See, this is the point where setting up the game becomes unfun.

Well such info can be useful for any future CMN effort in general. Besides, I like statistics.