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  • Next ACDG: boost weaker factions?

    As some of you may have noticed, I held polls for the strongest and weakest factions in the AC-General/Help/Strategy forum a while back. Now these polls are dropping off the first page, so I'll call the results final.

    Subtracting a faction's results of the "weakest faction" poll off that faction's result of the "strongest faction" poll, I get the following results:
    (PKs got 1, UoP 2, Morgan 1 and Gaia 1 extra point than they had votes in the "strongest faction" poll, due to people accidentally voting for the Aliens, but then realizing their mistake and announcing their new votes in the thread.)

    Code:
    [b]Strongest factions:[/b]
    University   28 70.00%
    Hive         22 52.50%
    Drones       17 42.50%
    Peacekeepers 13 32.50%
    Gaians        9 22.50% 
    Consciousness 7 17.50%
    Morgan        5 12.50% 
    Angels        4 10.00% 
    Pirates       1 2.50%
    Believers     1 2.50% 
    Spartans      0 0% 
    Cult          0 0%
    41 votes
    
    [b]Weakest factions:[/b]
    Cult         30 61.22%
    Believers    18 36.73% 
    Spartans     18 36.73%
    Angels       14 28.57%
    Morgans      13 26.53% 
    Pirates      10 20.41%
    Peacekeepers  5 10.20%
    Drones        3 6.12%
    Gaians        2 4.08% 
    Consciousness 1 2.04% 
    Hive          1 2.04%
    University    1 2.04% 
    49 votes
    
    [b]Total results:[/b]
    University   30-1= +29
    Hive         22-1= +21
    Drones       17-3= +14
    Peacekeepers 14-5= +9
    Gaians       10-2= +8
    Consciousness 7-1= +6
    Morgans      6-13= -7
    Pirates      1-10= -9
    Angels       4-14= -10
    Believers    1-18= -17
    Spartans     0-18= -18
    Cult         0-30= -30
    Now I was wondering, since many people admit some factions are weaker than others, wouldn't it be fair to give in a next ACDG the weaker factions some benefits compared to the stronger factions? Doing so would prevent that people don't pick their faction based on what would be most fun to play, but rather on what faction gives a good chance for victory.
    Personally I would love to participate in a Spartan faction, if there was one in a next ACDG, as I think they give great roleplay potential. Look at the Spartan Chronicles for example. However since the Spartans have de facto -2 Industry and -1 Economy (due to an inherent -1 Ind and besides that the inability to run Wealth which most factions use for most of the game) compared to about all other factions, I would be quite hesitant to actually play them. It's not that I would per se want to win the ACDG, but to have most fun, it's certainly best one has a competitive faction, so one can at least be powerful enough to be a major player in interfactional diplomacy etcetera.

    Would you agree to the principle that the weaker factions get some bonus in the form of a better starting position or some minor modification to their characteristics?
    For the Spartans that could for example be giving them the ability to run Wealth just like everyone else, or giving them a rocky mineral square and some energy rich terrain near their HQ to compensate for the Ind & Eco penalty. For another faction like the Angels - who johndmuller indicated some current PEACE members are interested to play next - a modification could for example be give them +1 Probe instead of +2 Probe (so they don't suffer the probe rollover bug after discovering PreSentient Algorithms), but compensate with giving them impunity for Knowledge SE.
    Thoughts?

    Edit: Oh yeah, this is of course all assuming that the next ACDG would be a multihumanfaction game.
    Last edited by Maniac; April 4, 2004, 20:29.
    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

  • #2
    Interesting idea.
    I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).

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    • #3
      Advantageous starting positions would be good
      Those walls are absent of glory as they always have been. The people of tents will inherit this land.

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      • #4
        Can't argue with icaris...
        I'm not conceited, conceit is a fault and I have no faults...

        Civ and WoW are my crack... just one... more... turn...

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        • #5
          What about just some key techs? Cult with CentEmp and Spartans with Doc:Loy or something.
          Consul.

          Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

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          • #6
            I think advantageous starting positions would be better.

            My concern is what makes a team "strong" vs. "weak"? I mean, strong research but weak military could be a strong faction to some, but weak to others?

            I would prefer a more scientific rationale behind what determines the "quality" of a certain faction.
            Despot-(1a) : a ruler with absolute power and authority (1b) : a person exercising power tyrannically
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            *****Citizen of the Hive****
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            • #7
              Sounds good to me, as long as there's a consensus on which factions are weak and which are strong.

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              • #8
                Agree with a SMALL helping hand for some factions, but only by giving slightly better terrain, not modifying the game files.

                I mean, only changes that can be done in a scenario editor.

                -Jam
                1) The crappy metaspam is an affront to the true manner of the artform. - Dauphin
                That's like trying to overninja a ninja when you aren't a mammal. CAN'T BE DONE. - Kassi on doublecrossing Ljube-ljcvetko
                Check out the ALL NEW Galactic Overlord Website for v2.0 and the Napoleonic Overlord Website or even the Galactic Captians Website Thanks Geocities!
                Taht 'ventisular link be woo to clyck.

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                • #9
                  A combination of better starting techs and better starting locations maybe...
                  Mart
                  Map creation contest
                  WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

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                  • #10
                    yeah something like that ^
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
                      What about just some key techs? Cult with CentEmp and Spartans with Doc:Loy or something.
                      That would only be a one-time boost. Due to their inherent faction weaknesses, they would probably soon fall back anyway.

                      Originally posted by Frankychan
                      My concern is what makes a team "strong" vs. "weak"? I mean, strong research but weak military could be a strong faction to some, but weak to others?
                      That's indeed a valid point. However the weakest factions can even be beaten on their own game, making them good at nothing. For example the Planet Cult is a green faction, but about everything the Cult can do, the Gaians can do much better. And the Spartans are supposed to be a good conqueror faction, but due to their Ind & Eco penalties their economy and production starts falling back very soon compared to the builders, meaning that after a while they can be easily outproduced in military size - supposedly the Spartans' strongpoint.

                      I would prefer a more scientific rationale behind what determines the "quality" of a certain faction.
                      Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
                      Sounds good to me, as long as there's a consensus on which factions are weak and which are strong.
                      We have the votes and experience of some 50 people, some of which have played this game for several years. IMO that's a better quality judgement than any kind of theoretical faction strength model we could invent.
                      Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                      Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

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                      • #12
                        Maniac brings up some very good points about why the factions are weak or strong. The fault lies in their social enginering bonuses/penalties and restrictions.

                        Thus minor tweeks like good starting position, bonus tecnologies ect ect, will ultimatly have only a short term effect.

                        I think we need to look to editing their core characteristics to create balance.

                        I have been doing some of this latly and I have quite a number of nice ideas that could be of assistence.

                        Here are a few

                        Belivers - +25% on Defence as well as offence, Free Rec Commons, drop the -1 Planet rating

                        Spartans - FreeAbilities of a military nature, Sporosific Gas/deep Radar/Nerve gass (well maybe not the gass). Drop Industry penalty

                        Morgans - Interest on his Energy Credits, Free Energy Banks

                        Gaians - start game with Alien Artifact, FreeBiology Labs

                        Lal - TechShare 3, basicaly the Planatary Datalinks.


                        Their are lots of good options out their for us to consider and we should do so if we ever want to see these factions in the game.
                        Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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                        • #13
                          Impaler, keep in mind that it is not recommended to give more then 1 free ability to a faction. Otherwise no 2 other abilities can be added to any particular unit in the workshop during a game.

                          Besides, correct if I'm wrong, but I thought that a majority wanted to play with the existent factions, not with custom ones?
                          He who knows others is wise.
                          He who knows himself is enlightened.
                          -- Lao Tsu

                          SMAC(X) Marsscenario

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                          • #14
                            I was concerned that drastic changes that simply aim to boost different factions may change the game because they may change the characteristics of those factions, but Impaler's suggestions sound good to me since they actually enhance each faction's characteristics. Just keep in mind we don't make too big a change so that the balance is tipped to another end.
                            Be good, and if at first you don't succeed, perhaps failure will be back in fashion soon. -- teh Spamski

                            Grapefruit Garden

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                            • #15
                              Edit:

                              Morgan, Lal, Gaians don't need changes.

                              Spartans might benefit from a free ability

                              Believers 25% defense sounds cool to me , but negative planet removed shouldn't.
                              Last edited by GeoModder; April 5, 2004, 11:00.
                              He who knows others is wise.
                              He who knows himself is enlightened.
                              -- Lao Tsu

                              SMAC(X) Marsscenario

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