Humane Treatment of Prisoners of War

[Drogue]

I disagree with moomin. Making the save open to everyone is the worst possible outcome. It gives everyone privilaged information, which is only deserved by those that have that infiltration anyway.

Also, I don't accept we will take a relations hit. We have explained previously our problems with PEACE to faction leaders, and on the whole, they seem to have been accepted. War is the logical choice after opinions made a decent relationship impossible. Most can see that. I don't accept that other factions have an opinion against us at all for this. Moreover, that will certainly increase if PEACE members join other factions. PEACE are naturally biased against us due to the war, and so would use foreign policy to try to harm us, exactly as Maniac described.

[foolish_icarus]

Originally posted by Drogue
PEACE are naturally biased against us due to the war, and so would use foreign policy to try to harm us, exactly as Maniac described.

Which is competely unacceptable, after all. It is completely out of order for PEACE to attempt to harm another faction!

Also, I don't accept we will take a relations hit.

You won't. Because you're going to lose.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Drogue
Also, I don't accept we will take a relations hit. We have explained previously our problems with PEACE to faction leaders, and on the whole, they seem to have been accepted.

I respectfully disagree. It doesn't much matter what your particular casus belli is, the net outcome is that your war effort is helping the Hive, which is already well established on its way to victory. That consideration alone should have kept you from initiating these hostilities. You may or may not regain that respect if you manage to swing up the powergraph as a result of this vendetta, but if the Pirates play even half rational, what you get will be pretty worthless. Meanwhile, the Hive happily cranks out more units and is content to watch you do its dirty work w/out it having to switch from relentless economic growth to a war stance. I should think this will result in a pretty little hit to relations, no matter if you accept it or not.

[moomin]

Originally posted by foolish_icarus
You won't. Because you're going to lose.

That's the spirit, my lad! Show them just how unwelcome landlubbers are out on the open seas!

[Impaler[WrG]]

Lets try to stay on topic, this thread is for discussing the redistibution of players from an eliminated Faction. The current Cycon/PEACE war may have initiated the discussion but the ruling generated here will ofcorse aply to all future situations and will likly generate a precident for future Team Democracy games. The outcome of the current war and any political repercussions from it have no real bearing on this discussion.

We just want to come up with a Fair, Equitable and Realistic way to reintigrate players back into the game if their team is wiped out. If you asked me this issue should have been resolved when the game started, but likly you had lots of players at that point and did not see the need.

Here is another sugjestion.
Googlie PM's all the members of eliminated Faction and asks if they want to continue partisipating and if so with what team or if they are willing to join a team of Googlies choice. Googlie then comunicates the requests to the faction leaders to see which players would be accepted on the team. Then Googlie redistibutes the players, trying to give as many people their first choice, trying to send atleast half to the Concourer, and trying to spread the remainder evenly among the non-concoring teams. This will ocorse require a good deal of time on Googlies part to perform but I think it has a high probability of making as many people as possible happy.

[Snowflake]

I think the major problem may not be who gets the people. It is rathe who gets the information known to those people. Would it be entirely unrealistic to suggest that the previous saves of the defeated team should not be shared to any of the other factions?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I would be agreeable to making previous saves offlimits for everyone, including the Concourers. I think forum access might also fall under that catagory.

I would say that the knowlage people can hold in their heads should be shared though, you cant realy tell someone NOT to act on what they realy know. Most of that knowlage would be of a diplomatic nature, like so and so did this in the past with us and so and so has a secret aliance ect ect.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by foolish_icarus
Which is competely unacceptable, after all. It is completely out of order for PEACE to attempt to harm another faction!

That isn't what I said at all. What PEACE does is up to PEACE. However what, say, the Hive does is up to the Hive. If an ex-PEACE member joins the Hive, and changes the Hive policy to be anti-CyCon, then I have a problem. PEACE cvan do whatever it wishes, but of another faction accepts members from a defeated faction, it will change the policies of other factions, when in RP or what I believe is fair in game, it shouldn't do.

[foolish_icarus]

However what, say, the Hive does is up to the Hive. If an ex-PEACE member joins the Hive, and changes the Hive policy to be anti-CyCon, then I have a problem. PEACE cvan do whatever it wishes, but of another faction accepts members from a defeated faction, it will change the policies of other factions, when in RP or what I believe is fair in game, it shouldn't do.

So you are saying that your actions should not have repercussions? That if you conquer a faction and some members join another team they are not allowed to voice or act on any views that go against the conquerers?

If a faction is defeated, and its members join other factions, the conqueror or another, they are entitled to pursue their wishes, both as players and as characters. If you wish to stifle or ignore their views, then oppress your members IC, but do not try to legislate game rules to enforce your faction's self interest.

I would be agreeable to making previous saves offlimits for everyone, including the Concourers. I think forum access might also fall under that catagory.

I would say that the knowlage people can hold in their heads should be shared though, you cant realy tell someone NOT to act on what they realy
know. Most of that knowlage would be of a diplomatic nature, like so and so did this in the past with us and so and so has a secret aliance ect ect.

[Impaler[WrG]]

This is yet another reason the Concourer should recive the lions share of defeated players, the defeated players would have any hostility towards their Concourers canceled out by pure SELF INTEREST.

We have seen the Enemy and he is US!!

And if players that are distributed to other factions are keept thin and even, likly no more then 2 then the impact on thouse teams would likly be small enough to not radicaly change the forign policy of the faction that absorbs the players. Also considering that said faction is VOLUNTARILY absorbing new members its realy an issue internal to them if they want to have new people with a distinct "ajenda" join them.

[foolish_icarus]

That's the point. Cycon advocates that a conquering faction would assume half, or all, of the defeated players, but then at the same time seems to assume that such players, no matter which faction they end up belonging to, have no right to respond to agression.
Will new players ultimately seek the betterment of their faction?
Yes, IF they are able to match themselves to the faction that they feel comfortable with bettering.
That is the point, and indeed the fundamental mechanism of the Democracy Game, that individuals will have a continuing impetus to particate because, even if at the moment their will is not being carried through, the opportunity remains for them to influence policy. But if people are thrust into factions whose policies are irreconciliable with their own, especially with the conquered/conqueror dynamic, the dissidents can basically just be ignored, thereby eliminating them.
Because here we have so few teams, especially after the un-teaming of PUT, if e.g. PEACE is conquered by the Cycon, then undoubtedly Cycon will get some members. And that is fine. The principle remains the same, regardless of the size: The only workable way to reassign players is by what they themselves can handle, not some arbitrary quota.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Players will Fall into one of 5 catacories

1 - Dont want to continue playing in any Faction
2 - Want to Continue with the Concourer
3 - Want to Continue with a specific 3rd Faction in mind
4 - Want to continue with any random 3rd Faction
5 - Want to Continue but dont care what faction


1 - Obvously no one can make you play if you dont want to, could return the the game at some future point if they wish and be re-evaluated.

2 - Idealy what most people should do as its most consistent with Role Playing and reasistic "Spoils of War". If the Concourer were to ostrasize people then thats their own foolish mistake. Cycon sertanly won't ostrasize anyone who is a contributing and productive function.

3 - Distribute these folks as they wish (assuming they are accepted), but just see to it that their is atleast something limiting it, a few arn't to bad but the whole eliminated team should not get to swarm over to one of the other teams even if that team wants them. Perhaps limit the maximum number of players that a 3rd team can absorb to be equal to the number of players the Concourer recives.

4 - Assign these people to even out the distributions among 3rd Factions.

5 - Most of these if any should go to the Concourer or too evening out 3rd faction alocations if their is a need their.

[Voltaire]

I support allowing players to continue in other factions, but it must be pointed out that allow this possibly opens the doors to having treachery on the part of current players. For example a player from a falling faction might secretly share information with the enemy in exchange for favorable treatment (such as being appointed the administration of the conquered territories). Now personally I do not see a problem with this, I find it rather interesting. Allowing players to join other teams also allow them to setup a government-in-exile in a friendly state, all sorts of interesting things come about from allow it.

[Drogue]

foolish_icarus: I'm not saying our actions shouldn't have repurcussions. Our actions will have repurcussions by whatever PEACE does, and also by the way other factions perceive it. However I see joining another faction as the same as defections. They shouldn't happen. I'm not trying to legislate to enforce our self interest. I'm saying that something that is banned in all other teams DGs I know of, and that I thought was banned at the start, should not be allowed.

I'm not assuming quotas, I'm assuming a total ban.

Voltaire: It is impossible in any democratic faction to have that. We cannot give someone a title in return for information, since everyone is elected.

The only consistant things are either having a total ban or having the option of joining the conquering faction, who capture their bases and so capture their population. Quota's were a compromise, but one that isn't particularly realistic. It can understand the argument that we aren't flush for players, but we have enough, IMHO. That is why I think either a total ban, as per defections, or joining the conqueror.

[Jamski]

See Maniac?

-Jam