Next DG Discussion

[Maniac]

You said you voted for SMAniaC, so I assume the first point doesn't apply to you.

Regarding the governance, the feedback of someone who doesn't like it is of course crucial! What exactly do you find some convoluted about it?

Is there some specific aspect(s) you can pinpoint? Or it a general feeling based on the lengthy discussions? The first something can be done about of course. The only way to solve the latter I guess, is to see the proposed system into practice and (hopefully) showing it isn't convoluted.

Btw, have you already tried out a game of SMAniaC?

[Kataphraktoi]

I agree with goog

i just havnt been arsed enough to do\say something about it



that is definitly convulted, btw. ok look here is kata's ACDG4 rules

Players can form parties and make a party thread, alternativly bribe SB to make a private forum on eventis
After the base empire is enough to let all parties, hopefully only a few, they take over their section and hopefully work together
no cheating
lots of spam
some president guy that gets elected by player votes with special? powers

alternativly just copy off the civ2dg system. where is MWIA?
i may PM him and also look into the civ2dg system when i get back in

im not sure it cover's all the bases or anything, but anyway

[Mead]

Originally posted by Googlie
I think a lot of potential participants are being turned off (and therefore their voices aren't heard) by:

• having to instal a mod in order to play, rather than just a vanilla (even if beefed up AI) faction;
• the convoluted governance/voting, etc structure being proposed if playing as the Believers (Conclave)

I know I am

Thanks Googlie


I really would like to play, but I'm not sure of installing the mod.


The goverance doesn't bother me as much.

Just so long as it, no matter how it's technically run, is a democracy were the decisions are made by consensus, or if necessary if there is no consensus, by majority rule.

As long as it works and consensus (or majority if necessary) rule determines how we play the mechanics don't matter too much to me -- try to keep it simple so we can concentrate on playing the game.

I'd like to see a game set up and running.

I really like the idea of the SPDG.

Biggest benefit is that we only need one turnplayer at a time - being turnplayer can create a big demand on your time and often Real Life gets in the way, plus when you need to spend some time away from the game it hurts your team when they need to find coverage.

I like the CMN assisting the AI, because that is what the AI needs the most. Don't get me wrong, the AI still needs to be boosted, but I think having the AI CMN assited will challenge the team more than having the AI boosted.

My prime goal in this is to have fun.

Let's get the game going.


Mead

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Mead
I really would like to play, but I'm not sure of installing the mod.

In the time it took to write this post, you could have already downloaded and installed it.

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
that is definitly convulted, btw. ok look here is kata's ACDG4 rules

Players can form parties and make a party thread, alternativly bribe SB to make a private forum on eventis
After the base empire is enough to let all parties, hopefully only a few, they take over their section and hopefully work together
no cheating
lots of spam
some president guy that gets elected by player votes with special? powers

That's the summary of what's currently on the table.

[vishniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
I think a lot of potential participants are being turned off (and therefore their voices aren't heard) by having to instal a mod in order to play, rather than just a vanilla (even if beefed up AI) faction;

As long as I'll get provided the step-by-step-to-do-it-for-super-dummies, I won't be turned off.

[fed1943]

Gentlemen,please allow me to say that:
The only thing I see turning me off is that there is no game.
I will keep lurking,voting(if any polls)and playing(if any game).
Best regards,

[Kataphraktoi]

That's the summary of what's currently on the table.

I never would have guessed

It would have helped if this thread wasnt the size of the Encyclopædia Britannica

[vyeh]

I've amended Maniac's Constitution to reflect recent discussion. The major change is the section on Orders and the vote for the Curia.

It would be very helpful (particularly for those who are impatient to begin a game) if any one disagreeing could propose specific changes to this draft. As a result of all those polls, I think that there is general agreement on (1) SP, (2) SMACX, (3) Believers. From the general discussion going on here, I don't think it would be very helpful to reopen the issues of (1) whether there is a two-tier system and (2) whether there are Orders.

Church Structure

The Lord’s Conclave has three organizational levels:
1. The Clergy
2. The Episcopate
3. The Curia

1. The Clergy consists of all the people participating in the ACDG.
Any clergyman may, via posting a poll, propose clerical law concerning the faction as a whole, including establishing and changing the tax rate of on the bases. The Clergy may not use polls to usurp the rights of the Episcopate. A proposal becomes clerical law if:
a) The YEA votes are bigger than the NAY votes
b) The number of YEA votes reaches a certain quorum. The quorum is 50% of the votes in the last election for the Pontifex Maximus (cfr infra).
c) The poll has been open for 2 days

2. The Episcopate consists of the Bishops. Bishops are base governors, and have the right to control of everything in their base screens, placement of workers and creation of specialists, facility and unit construction, build queues, and the movement and activities of all units supported by their bases.

3. The Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Conclave.
The head of the Curia and of the faction as a whole is the Pontifex Maximus (in short: Pontifex). S/he is the turnplayer, or may appoint someone to play the turn instead. The Curia is divided into several Dicasteries, each with a specific function. The head of a Dicastery is allowed to give orders to the turnplayer on his or her specific field.

4. Religious Orders may be formed at any time by any member of the Clergy.
a) An Order is a group of ideologically close individuals, who are striving to achieve their political and other goals through the Order's unified power.
b) Orders can control property, through bases controlled by members of the Order. An Order gets (and keeps) control of a base by getting one of their members elected as Bishop of that base.
c) Joining an Order is voluntary; however, opportunities for players to migrate between Orders are limited.
d) A base can shift among Orders if the Bishop of that base changes Order or a new Bishop is elected.
e) Each Order shall maintain its own membership lists.
f) An Order may choose to keep their ideology secret.


The hierarchy of authority is as follows:

For factional matters:
1. Factional laws accepted by the Clergy
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

For Episcopal matters:
1. The bishop
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

Factional law accepted by the clergy and orders by the bishops have the highest authority. If no relevant law has been passed, no orders have been given, or the law or orders need to be worked out in further detail, the competent Dicastery head may give orders. If no orders from the Dicastery have been given, the Pontifex (or his/her appointee) may use his or her best judgement during turnplaying.


Elections

Every 15 M.Y. two official polls are held in which all the members of the Clergy may vote. They are open for 2 days.

The first poll is the election of the Pontifex Maximus at the end of each month. Every clergyman may announce their candidacy for the Pontificate. A candidate must gain 50%+1 (as always, rounded down) of the votes to be elected. If no one gains that number of votes in the first round, a second round is held between the two candidates with the most votes.

In the second poll the Clergy must announce or confirm their support of a Religious Order. Each Order is alloted a number of votes which is the sum of the votes received in this poll plus the number of bases governed by their members. This sum is used through an auction to determine who gains control over which dicastery.

Episcopal Structure

Each person can choose to live in a specific base in the faction. People who do not specify a base are assumed to live in our headquarters base. The Curia live at the headquarters base.

Each base and its surroundings forms a diocese. Only people living in a certain base are allowed to elect the Bishop for the corresponding diocese. The only exception is the Holy See, our headquarters, which is always governed by a member of the Curia.

The citizens of several bases can unite their dioceses into one bigger Ecclesiastical province (in short: province), and rule it as if it were one diocese, with one bishop election, and factional law applying to the province as a whole. The citizens of a base can at a later date always decide to leave the province.

There can at most only be as many bases in a province as there are people living in that province.

If a base or the province containing the base has been founded for at least 15 M.Y., and it has at least three citizens, those citizens can vote with a 50%+1 majority to forbid migration of certain people to their base or province.

[PJayTycy]

Seems good.

Some comments:

4.b) delete the part "(and keeps)". It only adds confusion as if once gaining a base would mean it's permanently. (which is countered by 4.d)

Also, the second poll (about alotting support for orders), seems to be a fun goal to strive for (get as many active members and as much of your followers elected as bisshop). The problem though, is that currently there's no real reason given to try to achieve a high score there. Well, something vague about an auction over dicastery control is written, but maybe that should be explained a little more in detail. (maybe add a short fifth point in the church structure about dicasteries)


I have to agree though I'm not familiar AT ALL with all these religious names. If you guys talk about dicasteries, you could as well be saying huyslaria. Really, I understand now these are just "ministers", but still... Sometimes I mix up Clergy and Curia and don't understand part of the text untill I notice my mix up.

So, what can be done about this? First of all, don't invent new words to name a group of people. For example, instead of "epicistopate", just say "circle of bisshops" (or something with clearly the word bisshop in it).

[Kataphraktoi]

As the boards resident believer, i too will need filling in. Ive never heard of this stuff before

I assume this is a parody on the catholic church, but i know little about it. I find the spartans or morganites to be much more in line with a government form i would enact\want
Tell me if that made sense.

[/discontinuity]

[Maniac]

Good constitution!

Originally posted by PJayTycy
4.b) delete the part "(and keeps)". It only adds confusion as if once gaining a base would mean it's permanently. (which is countered by 4.d)

I agree.

Also why does 4c say migration between Orders is limited? IIRC binTravkin proposed this, but is this necessary unless there would be fixed secret missions right from the start?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
As the boards resident believer, i too will need filling in. Ive never heard of this stuff before

I'd never or rarely heard the words diocese (bisdom in Dutch), episcopate or dicastery myself before this thread. I found them on wikipedia when looking a bit about the Vatican and church structure.

[vyeh]

I think we're getting close. To Keep this discussion focused, the current amended constitution is at the bottom. Thank you, PJayTycy, for proposing actual word changes!

Originally posted by PJayTycy
Some comments:

4.b) delete the part "(and keeps)". It only adds confusion as if once gaining a base would mean it's permanently. (which is countered by 4.d)

Agreed and incorporated.

Originally posted by PJayTycy
Also, the second poll (about alotting support for orders), seems to be a fun goal to strive for (get as many active members and as much of your followers elected as bisshop). The problem though, is that currently there's no real reason given to try to achieve a high score there. Well, something vague about an auction over dicastery control is written, but maybe that should be explained a little more in detail. (maybe add a short fifth point in the church structure about dicasteries)

As you requested, I've added a fifth point and expanded the description of the auction for Dicasteries.

Originally posted by PJayTycy
I have to agree though I'm not familiar AT ALL with all these religious names. If you guys talk about dicasteries, you could as well be saying huyslaria. Really, I understand now these are just "ministers", but still... Sometimes I mix up Clergy and Curia and don't understand part of the text untill I notice my mix up.

So, what can be done about this? First of all, don't invent new words to name a group of people. For example, instead of "epicistopate", just say "circle of bisshops" (or something with clearly the word bisshop in it).

I'm more concerned with the game mechanics. I adopted Maniac's terminology.

Originally posted by Maniac
Also why does 4c say migration between Orders is limited? IIRC binTravkin proposed this, but is this necessary unless there would be fixed secret missions right from the start?

I've taken it out in the revised draft. Let's see if there is any further discussion on this point.

Church Structure

The Lord’s Conclave has three organizational levels:
1. The Clergy
2. The Episcopate
3. The Curia

1. The Clergy consists of all the people participating in the ACDG.
Any clergyman may, via posting a poll, propose clerical law concerning the faction as a whole, including establishing and changing the tax rate of on the bases. The Clergy may not use polls to usurp the rights of the Episcopate. A proposal becomes clerical law if:
a) The YEA votes are bigger than the NAY votes
b) The number of YEA votes reaches a certain quorum. The quorum is 50% of the votes in the last election for the Pontifex Maximus (cfr infra).
c) The poll has been open for 2 days

2. The Episcopate consists of the Bishops. Bishops are base governors, and have the right to control of everything in their base screens, placement of workers and creation of specialists, facility and unit construction, build queues, and the movement and activities of all units supported by their bases.

3. The Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Conclave.
The head of the Curia and of the faction as a whole is the Pontifex Maximus (in short: Pontifex). S/he is the turnplayer, or may appoint someone to play the turn instead. The Curia is divided into several Dicasteries, each with a specific function.

4. Religious Orders may be formed at any time by any member of the Clergy.
a) An Order is a group of ideologically close individuals, who are striving to achieve their political and other goals through the Order's unified power.
b) Orders can control property, through bases controlled by members of the Order. An Order gets control of a base by getting one of their members elected as Bishop of that base.
c) Joining an Order is voluntary.
d) A base can shift among Orders if the Bishop of that base changes Order or a new Bishop is elected.
e) Each Order shall maintain its own membership lists. It has the power to refuse admission to its roster and to expel members.
f) An Order may choose to keep their ideology secret.

5. A Dicastery controls a specific game function of the faction (e.g. military units, research, social engineering, HQ governance). The creation, dissolution and function of Dicasteries are governed by clerical law. The head of a Dicastery is allowed to give orders to the turnplayer on his or her specific field.

The hierarchy of authority is as follows:

For factional matters:
1. Factional laws accepted by the Clergy
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

For Episcopal matters:
1. The bishop
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

Factional law accepted by the clergy and orders by the bishops have the highest authority. If no relevant law has been passed, no orders have been given, or the law or orders need to be worked out in further detail, the competent Dicastery head may give orders. If no orders from the Dicastery have been given, the Pontifex (or his/her appointee) may use his or her best judgement during turnplaying.


Elections

Every 15 M.Y. two official polls are held in which all the members of the Clergy may vote. They are open for 2 days.

The first poll is the election of the Pontifex Maximus at the end of each month. Every clergyman may announce their candidacy for the Pontificate. A candidate must gain 50%+1 (as always, rounded down) of the votes to be elected. If no one gains that number of votes in the first round, a second round is held between the two candidates with the most votes.

In the second poll the Clergy must announce or confirm their support of a Religious Order. Each Order is alloted a number of votes which is the sum of the votes received in this poll plus the number of bases governed by their members ("points").

An Order may bid its points toward control of a Dicastery. Two or more Orders my combine their points. If there is only one bid, the winner loses a point and designates the head of that Dicastery. If there are more than one bid, the winner loses one more point than the second place bid and designates the Dicastery. The losing bidder(s) retains all points and may bid on another Dicastery.

Episcopal Structure

Each person can choose to live in a specific base in the faction. People who do not specify a base are assumed to live in our headquarters base. The Curia live at the headquarters base.

Each base and its surroundings forms a diocese. Only people living in a certain base are allowed to elect the Bishop for the corresponding diocese. The only exception is the Holy See, our headquarters, which is always governed by a member of the Curia.

The citizens of several bases can unite their dioceses into one bigger Ecclesiastical province (in short: province), and rule it as if it were one diocese, with one bishop election, and factional law applying to the province as a whole. The citizens of a base can at a later date always decide to leave the province.

There can at most only be as many bases in a province as there are people living in that province.

If a base or the province containing the base has been founded for at least 15 M.Y., and it has at least three citizens, those citizens can vote with a 50%+1 majority to forbid migration of certain people to their base or province.

***

Next steps:

1) If you have comments, please reference a specific point. It would be helpful if you proposed language.

2) I think there is basically an agreement of SP, SMACX, Believers, SMAniaC, the basic structure (above).

3) The open issue is whether there should be secret missions/quests. The poll shows that most people could go either way.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by vyeh
3) The open issue is whether there should be secret missions/quests. The poll shows that most people could go either way.

Currently the poll on secret missions

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150623

has the following votes: 4 in favor of secret missions, 2 against and 6 either way.

I've added a line on secret missions to Maniac's Constitution (below).

Church Structure

The Lord’s Conclave has three organizational levels:
1. The Clergy
2. The Episcopate
3. The Curia

1. The Clergy consists of all the people participating in the ACDG.
Any clergyman may, via posting a poll, propose clerical law concerning the faction as a whole, including establishing and changing the tax rate of on the bases. The Clergy may not use polls to usurp the rights of the Episcopate. A proposal becomes clerical law if:
a) The YEA votes are bigger than the NAY votes
b) The number of YEA votes reaches a certain quorum. The quorum is 50% of the votes in the last election for the Pontifex Maximus (cfr infra).
c) The poll has been open for 2 days

2. The Episcopate consists of the Bishops. Bishops are base governors, and have the right to control of everything in their base screens, placement of workers and creation of specialists, facility and unit construction, build queues, and the movement and activities of all units supported by their bases.

3. The Curia is the administrative apparatus of the Conclave.
The head of the Curia and of the faction as a whole is the Pontifex Maximus (in short: Pontifex). S/he is the turnplayer, or may appoint someone to play the turn instead. The Curia is divided into several Dicasteries, each with a specific function.

4. Religious Orders may be formed at any time by any member of the Clergy.
a) An Order is a group of ideologically close individuals, who are striving to achieve their political and other goals through the Order's unified power.
b) Orders can control property, through bases controlled by members of the Order. An Order gets control of a base by getting one of their members elected as Bishop of that base.
c) Joining an Order is voluntary.
d) A base can shift among Orders if the Bishop of that base changes Order or a new Bishop is elected.
e) Each Order shall maintain its own membership lists. It has the power to refuse admission to its roster and to expel members.
f) An Order may choose to keep their ideology secret.
g) For glory and advantage, an Order may request a secret quest from the CMN.

5. A Dicastery controls a specific game function of the faction (e.g. military units, research, social engineering, HQ governance). The creation, dissolution and function of Dicasteries are governed by clerical law. The head of a Dicastery is allowed to give orders to the turnplayer on his or her specific field.

The hierarchy of authority is as follows:

For factional matters:
1. Factional laws accepted by the Clergy
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

For Episcopal matters:
1. The bishop
2. The competent Dicastery head
3. The Pontifex Maximus
4. The turnplayer

Factional law accepted by the clergy and orders by the bishops have the highest authority. If no relevant law has been passed, no orders have been given, or the law or orders need to be worked out in further detail, the competent Dicastery head may give orders. If no orders from the Dicastery have been given, the Pontifex (or his/her appointee) may use his or her best judgement during turnplaying.


Elections

Every 15 M.Y. two official polls are held in which all the members of the Clergy may vote. They are open for 2 days.

The first poll is the election of the Pontifex Maximus at the end of each month. Every clergyman may announce their candidacy for the Pontificate. A candidate must gain 50%+1 (as always, rounded down) of the votes to be elected. If no one gains that number of votes in the first round, a second round is held between the two candidates with the most votes.

In the second poll the Clergy must announce or confirm their support of a Religious Order. Each Order is alloted a number of votes which is the sum of the votes received in this poll plus the number of bases governed by their members ("points").

An Order may bid its points toward control of a Dicastery. Two or more Orders my combine their points. If there is only one bid, the winner loses a point and designates the head of that Dicastery. If there are more than one bid, the winner loses one more point than the second place bid and designates the Dicastery. The losing bidder(s) retains all points and may bid on another Dicastery.

Episcopal Structure

Each person can choose to live in a specific base in the faction. People who do not specify a base are assumed to live in our headquarters base. The Curia live at the headquarters base.

Each base and its surroundings forms a diocese. Only people living in a certain base are allowed to elect the Bishop for the corresponding diocese. The only exception is the Holy See, our headquarters, which is always governed by a member of the Curia.

The citizens of several bases can unite their dioceses into one bigger Ecclesiastical province (in short: province), and rule it as if it were one diocese, with one bishop election, and factional law applying to the province as a whole. The citizens of a base can at a later date always decide to leave the province.

There can at most only be as many bases in a province as there are people living in that province.

If a base or the province containing the base has been founded for at least 15 M.Y., and it has at least three citizens, those citizens can vote with a 50%+1 majority to forbid migration of certain people to their base or province.

***

Next steps:

1) If you have comments, please reference a specific point. It would be helpful if you proposed language.

2) I think there is basically an agreement.

3) If there is no further tweaking, let's post a new thread with all the details collected.

[Mart]

Quite silent in here. Looks like we do need a bit of a break.