Next DG Discussion

[bluetemplar]

Ok, finally, I've read ALL of it! ( )

The more I read and the more it seemed interesting to me.
But I disagree with what is proposed in the last posts.
IMHO the original structure is more interesting as it will have more fluidity during the game while not being so complicated:

Each Parrish (base) elects a Bishop who has the control of the Parrish.
Several Parishes can be reunited in Provinces runned by a re-elected "Arch"Bishop.
The members of the Clergy (players) can join Orders.
The Orders will be able to compete for posts and their power would be determined by the number of their followers and bonus points for Bishops/Archbishops they have as members (maybe the bonus will depend on the bases population)

That way there still could be players creating their own Order during the game, or Bishops/Provinces without a specific Order they would be in...
Orders would have to compete to try to gain the support of these neutral memebers.

What do you think?

[Mead]

Originally posted by Illuminatus

Steps for the next demogame

I see it is a bit chaotic here, people are polling about settings of the game and others are discussing Conclave internal structure while no firm decisions have been made.

Thanks Illuminatus. You're right.

I do not recognize the use of SMAniaC or the Conclave for demogame as final yet. We haven't heard the voice of many about it and although no strong alternative has been presented try to see how are your ideas recieved by the rest of the community.

I see a few polls have been started.

I hope we go with the vanilla SMAX (I could live with SMAC) with AI boosted and CMN assisted. Conclave is OK with me.

The way I see it you should decide the following:

a) Officialy confirm if people want a SPDG or a MPDG via poll
b) SMAC or SMACX (also poll)
c) Use a modified or a normal game.
I. Will you use a mod?

I hope we will. It makes things more orderly in the administration of the game.

II. Which mod will you use if point I. is positive? (in other words see if majority goes with SMAniaC)
[the following is mostly redundant if a mod is chosen]
III. Will the AI be boosted?
IV. Changes to alphax.txt
V. Will the CMN assist the AI and how?

I hope so. I gues how will need to be determined by the group.

d) Which faction(s) to use?
f) Game settings (map, opponents etc.)

We have a bit of work to do.
I guess a poll will need to be done. I don't really matter much to me the factions.
Standard large or huge map with average to wet climate, average to low erosion and, whatever % water cover is good for me but the group will need to decide.

g) Do you wish secret missions, quests etc.

I suggest you combine point a), b) and the main c) point (I.) into a single poll.

I am leaving for the weekend but when I return I would like to see some clarification on this issues.

Perhaps we should just copy, and adjust as necessary, the old Polls from ACDG III.

Thanks again for moving us along.




Mead

[Illuminatus]

This is certainly an improvement. Vyeh, you did not need to be that diligent.

A thought: do you wish a separate thread for the Conclave discussion? I can split all the pertaining posts into a new thread.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
This is certainly an improvement. Vyeh, you did not need to be that diligent.

Poll results so far:

SP v. MP

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150574

9 SP, 3 MP, 3 either

SMAX v. SMACX

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150576

1 SMAC, 8 SMACX, 3 either

Modified v. Vanilla

SMAniaC 5, Vanilla - boosted, assisted AI 4, Vanilla - boosted, not assisted AI 2, Vanilla - not boosted but assisted AI 1, Two or more 2, not playing 1

Which faction?

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150622

Believer (aka Conclave) 9, Cyborgs 1, Morgan 1, Pirates 1, 1 not playing

Setup

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150572

discussion ongoing

Secret missions/quests

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150623

Yes 2, No 2, Either 4

[/QUOTE]
A thought: do you wish a separate thread for the Conclave discussion? I can split all the pertaining posts into a new thread. [/QUOTE]

Yes!!!!

Bottom line:

There are clear majorities for SP, SMACX, and Believers.

SMAniaC got a plurality.

People were ambivalent about secret missions/quests

[vyeh]

Originally posted by bluetemplar
But I disagree with what is proposed in the last posts.
IMHO the original structure is more interesting as it will have more fluidity during the game while not being so complicated:

Each Parrish (base) elects a Bishop who has the control of the Parrish.
Several Parishes can be reunited in Provinces runned by a re-elected "Arch"Bishop.
The members of the Clergy (players) can join Orders.
The Orders will be able to compete for posts and their power would be determined by the number of their followers and bonus points for Bishops/Archbishops they have as members (maybe the bonus will depend on the bases population)

That way there still could be players creating their own Order during the game, or Bishops/Provinces without a specific Order they would be in...
Orders would have to compete to try to gain the support of these neutral memebers.

What do you think?

I like your idea that Orders power is determined by the number of followers, plus bonuses for population of parishes and provinces run by their followers.

Specifically, what do you disagree with?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by vyeh
SMAniaC got a plurality.

If I understand their posts correctly, fed1943 and Humphrey both voted for SMAniaC - boosted = two or more of the above. If you deduct the not playing vote, this would mean a 50%-50% split on pro-/contra-SMAniaC. The SMAniaC half seems to be the most vocal one, and the one most active in actually organizing a game though.

[bluetemplar]

I like your idea that Orders power is determined by the number of followers, plus bonuses for population of parishes and provinces run by their followers.

It seems to me that I only put together the new ideas that were proposed in this thread...

And I deisagree with that:

AN ORDER GETS (AND KEEPS) CONTROL OF A BASE BY ACQUIRING (AND RETAINING) A MAJORITY OF THE RESIDENTS OF THE BASE

That means that the players which would not be inside an order, would have no power at all. A new order could not appear spontaneously using this system.

One problem that I see in my system is that Bishops can't be elected in the Curia if they aren't inside an Order... Maybe the members of the Curia would have to be Bishops to be elected, and either the election would be made by all the Clergy, or only by the Bishops themselves...
That way the orders would be what they meant to be: associations of individuals with same ideas/same goal, completely parallel to the Clergy > Bishops > Curia system...

(and that way some orders could stay secret if they wished to!)

I aso think that the Curia members should be able to keep the control of their Parish (at least by the mean of some Clergy member which they could "fire" if they disagreed with what he was doing to their Province)

[Googlie]

Well, I've been silent for the most part, altho voting for the different experience of the SMAniaC mod.

But I must admit I'm having a hard time with the Conclave - I'm guessing one needs a Catholic background to make effortless translation from the traditional bases/regions/countries and from the secretaries/ministers of state to the clergy heirarchy (Which to my reading of the B's isn't at all what Miriam was about - "Evangelical Fire" doesn't sound to me at all like a Clergy/Bishops/Curia set up - altho to be fair neither does M's position as "Psych Priest of Heavenly Diocese)

If we do go with the Conclave (or Believers for that matter) I'm suspecting that I'll simply be a parishioner, lurking to see what's happening from time to time, rather than an active RP'ing participant

I'd rather play a Morgan (which I voted for) or Hive faction (or the SMAniaC equivalents) as I'd have a greater comfort level with the diplomacy and political intriguing than I think I'd get with a religion-based faction and heirarchy

[Mart]

It will be our faction, so if the clergy feels a need for a reform, why not... And that would be RP.

I find most interesting how diplomacy and political intriguing would play along religion and ideology.
Just a way to look at it. I do not think we have to go deep into any christianity branch for copying hierarchy. We can make our own.

[GeoModder]

The Apolyton Sect.

[bluetemplar]

lol

I have only little knowledge in religion (and even less in religion hierarchy), but it seems to me that
Clergy = Players
Parrish = Base
Province = union of Bases
Bishop = Base(s) governor
Order = faction, guild
Curia = "govenement"
are not terms that are too hard remembering...

[fed1943]

Diplomacy and politics will be the same,only words change (in the game we will not be serving god,customers,people,workers,but just ourselves the players).My secret goal,as player,is to learn more,so to see good players play and read why they do that move.
Every faction has diferent needs,I would vote Gaians,my weakest,but Believers are OK.And I'm just interested in the game.
Best regards,

[vyeh]

Originally posted by bluetemplar
That means that the players which would not be inside an order, would have no power at all. A new order could not appear spontaneously using this system.

An independent player or group could simply declare that they are forming a new order. If they have a majority within a base (or acquire a majority by moving to a base), they can get control of the base.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
One problem that I see in my system is that Bishops can't be elected in the Curia if they aren't inside an Order...

Theoretically, an Order or Orders could cast their votes for someone who isn't a member of that Order. Maybe a "compromise" independent.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
Maybe the members of the Curia would have to be Bishops to be elected, and either the election would be made by all the Clergy, or only by the Bishops themselves...

Then you're eliminating the reason Orders were proposed in the first place, as a mechanism for the election of the Curia.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
That way the orders would be what they meant to be: associations of individuals with same ideas/same goal, completely parallel to the Clergy > Bishops > Curia system...

That's not what Maniac and I intended when we were first discussing Orders. We were looking at a voting system that would spread the Curia factions out.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
(and that way some orders could stay secret if they wished to!).

Why would they want to do that?

Originally posted by bluetemplar
I aso think that the Curia members should be able to keep the control of their Parish (at least by the mean of some Clergy member which they could "fire" if they disagreed with what he was doing to their Province)

The reason for requiring the Curia members to relinquish their vote in their parish was to prevent a player from having power both at the faction level and at the regional level.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Maniac
If I understand their posts correctly, fed1943 and Humphrey both voted for SMAniaC - boosted = two or more of the above. If you deduct the not playing vote, this would mean a 50%-50% split on pro-/contra-SMAniaC. The SMAniaC half seems to be the most vocal one, and the one most active in actually organizing a game though.

I think we should agree we're playing SMAniaC. I've posted a separate thread for pushing SMAniaC. If there isn't a lot of objections, I think we should declare this issue resolved. Where there are more than two choices, a plurality is enough, especially when the plurality is the most vocal.

[Googlie]

I think a lot of potential participants are being turned off (and therefore their voices aren't heard) by:

• having to instal a mod in order to play, rather than just a vanilla (even if beefed up AI) faction;
• the convoluted governance/voting, etc structure being proposed if playing as the Believers (Conclave)

I know I am