Next DG Discussion

[Maniac]

Standard map I think. All other map settings average? Opponents not discussed.

[fed1943]

I agree with map.Why not six random opponents?
Best regards,

[vyeh]

I have no problems with the Orders getting credit or points for the bases their members control. I want a way for a base to leave the Order if the members of that Order no longer control the base.

We could be having a semantic difference, if you would allow a base to leave an Order. (I have no problem with saying a base belongs to an Order as a shorthand for saying the majority of residents of that base belong to that Order.

Originally posted by binTravkin
I fully disagree with Order's being there 'just for electing'.
Orders MUST have an executive power.
It can be an indirect one, by having it's members run some of the bases, but there MUST be one.

Indirect running of a base through its members is fine with me, although running a Dicastery (directorship) is executive power to me.

Originally posted by binTravkin
It is the only way we can keep a real competition between the orders and make them actually want to work well, not to discuss or poll well.

The difference between an order and a party is that party is merely a group of people who want to elect some of their own, and it is their sole purpose.
Orders having actual control over bases through parishes of that order would have 2 purposes:
- election
- competition for power on a more material scale than poll.

If control of the bases through maintaining a majority of the residents of the base existed, it would have some interesting game consequences.
1. An Order could close off immigration to a base unless the immigrant belonged to that Order.
2. It would require the Order to have at least one member of the Order per base (any bases without a resident would be run by the Curia). This is similar to the discussion Maniac and I had with regard to provinces having no more bases than it has members.

Originally posted by binTravkin
I introduced this idea because I find sitting or lurking around just to poll, dull.
I want my party to work as team, not as a stead of people who just happen to have similar views (at least RP wise) and who are happy to have every chance to poll, discuss or otherwise raise their postcount.
Part of the reason Gaian team died, was that there were few people who dominated most issues and all the others had almost no chance to as to having less authority or not so much expierence.

Bring the power to the people!

This was the whole rationale of having the second (regional) tier. People who lived in a base would work as a team to run the base.

With the similarities in rationale between Orders and provinces, I think that it would make sense not to talk about eliminating one or the other, but of equating the two.

So Maniac's Constitution would state "Dioceses could join together to form Orders."

While you could see that as an elimination of Orders, you could also see that as a word substitution and that when we introduced the idea of Orders allocating their votes for departments of the Curia, we were giving the different provinces a say in the creation of the Curia.

Bottom line:

1. No absentee running of bases.
2. Province = Order.

[vyeh]

bluetemplar,

I'm under the assumption that a good number of participants are interested in (1) SMAX Single Player (only one human faction), (2) SMAniaC, (3) Conclave, (4) Standard map. There has been some discussion of having an additional demogame (possibly SMAC and possibly multiplayer.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
Edit: I proposed Blind Research because:
1) It's more "realistic" not knowing what tech will be discovered, more emphasis will be put in roleplay as some players will want to go for Conquest techs, some for Build techs, etc... instead of "We must beeline to X because it's the best way to play this faction".

I'll defer to Maniac on this point; in SMAX there is no one best way to play any faction. The way you play a faction depends on the starting conditions. If you're Miriam and you find yourself on a large island by yourself, playing momentum doesn't make much sense.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
2) When we will need to decide what tech to choose, a poll will be done to decide in what direction research should go. With an overwhelming majority, only one direction will be chosen, if there are two (or more) directions which are near in number of votes then both will be chosen, etc...
(or maybe this system is not compatible with the organisation you're setting in place... I definitely have to read all of this!)

The issue of polling remains the same whether it is blind research or beelining. I personally prefer that the equivalent of the science director have some choice in the matter. This really goes to the game issue of what gets the most participation: the directors getting to make meaningful choices or there being plenty of discussion and polls among everybody. There probably is a meaningful balance point in between the two extremes.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
Also I think that making a PBEM/DG with only two factions would result in a similar experience than a SPDG, since there could hardly be any diplomacy between these factions... it will be "US vs THEY".

In the SPDG, there would be diplomacy within the faction among the Orders. That would be a very different experience than a two human faction MPDG.

Originally posted by bluetemplar
4 is probably the minimum and 7 is the best if there is a way that the turns are done fast enough or if some people are willing to settle for 3-5 years...

4 was done in ACDGIII. 2 in ACDGII. I think many people want to go back to a SP like ACDGI.

[vyeh]

I think Maniac and I agree.

Originally posted by Maniac Missions sound nice though IMHO, in case there's a dull moment in the game. Eg retrieve some artifact on the other side of Planet, and get some big reward for it.

OK. If there were fluid Orders, I assume that an Order could ask the CMN for a secret or otherwise mission.

Originally posted by Maniac
Anyone is welcome of course.
Have a look if you're interested. I assume you can already guess most of the roleplay sources and possible gameplay goals from the intro.

No. What is the source?

Originally posted by Maniac

Looks like we agree that factional law must apply to the entire faction, probably could be accomplished by some vague wording like "The Clergy may pass law applying to the entire faction."

Originally posted by Maniac
I was thinking that in the beginning the Conclave could put a taxation of 100% on all bases' production, to ensure colony pod production. If such a high taxation level continued after a few bases were already established, that would indeed ruin the point of a two level system. On the other side, if the people in control of the second base would refuse to build any colony pods, this would wreck the whole game as well.

1. If there were a 100% tax on production, a base cold choose to grow instead of produce.
2. On the other hand, a majority of players might move to the first base and there could be a low tax. (When the next base was founded, a good number of residents of the first base might move to the second base and keep the low tax.) I think we can leave the tax issue to be part of the in game debate.
3. HQ would still be able to produce colony pods.

Originally posted by Maniac
The people. Though I assume that after lots of bases are established, people belonging to the same order would flock together to found provinces.

Fine with me.

Originally posted by Maniac
Hmm, personally I'd argue against blind research. Deciding what b-line to follow is a large part of the entire game strategy.

I agree. We would lose an important part of strategizing and it would leave less for the Brain of God (science minister) to do.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by fed1943
Partners,please allow me to say that:It seems like some ones fear most players will be put off play ...

But,please,lets go on,poll the non-agreed points(if any)poll the constitution and let the games begin.

The issue of whether players will not play is an important one. While polls are sometimes useful, they can't measure enthusiasm. I think we are coming to a general agreement in this thread. Once that occurs, then poll the Constitution.

I'm reluctant to poll the non-agreed points. I think that if we don't achieve consensus among the people who are participating in this thread, we'll have a had time attracting enough players to make the DEMOgame fun.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by fed1943
So,let me elaborate a little about holy deeds.They could be predefined,but at least some better be apointed later.Why?Because temporary deeds are essential(think at colony pods,both always and never would be very bad).Sure,some can be set from the begining.But some,if not all,must be pointed during the game.And I think best to trust this task to the Curia.The Curia will be over any doubt because his members live in HQ,their rights,if they belong to Order,pariash,whatever,will remain frozen while they are in the Curia,all his(Curia)apointments are never individual,but to everybody,and credits and rewards are never to the Curia.

Since the members of the Curia are elected through the Orders, they are very much part of the Order and the means by which Orders get their goals done. If there are deeds assigned later, they should be assigned by the CMN.

[binTravkin]

This was the whole rationale of having the second (regional) tier. People who lived in a base would work as a team to run the base.

With the similarities in rationale between Orders and provinces, I think that it would make sense not to talk about eliminating one or the other, but of equating the two.

So Maniac's Constitution would state "Dioceses could join together to form Orders."

While you could see that as an elimination of Orders, you could also see that as a word substitution and that when we introduced the idea of Orders allocating their votes for departments of the Curia, we were giving the different provinces a say in the creation of the Curia.

Bottom line:

1. No absentee running of bases.
2. Province = Order.

There are several very important differences between 'province' and 'order'

1.province is a defined geographical area, Order is not, it's geographical representation can be scattered or compact depending on the whereabouts of parishes who are members on the Order.
2.province is a step into hierarchy base-province-faction, Order is not. Order is a group of people who try to pull out their aims faction-wide
3.province has no idelogical background, Order has.
4.province cannot be equated to party, Order can (due to points 2. and 3.).

For me it's a question of fun and I find much more opportunities of RP and fun in the concept of Order, not in province.

Thus, I would edit:

2. Province = Order.

into
2. Province < Order.

And go with orders not to have overlapping concepts.

The definition of Order would then be:

'An Order is a group of ideologically close individuals, who are striving to achieve their political and other goals through Order's unified power.
Order can have a property, in a form of bases ruled by the participants of the order and anything those bases and units produced in them produce.
Joining of an Order is voluntarily, however opportunities to migrate between Orders are limited*.'

* - here should be some ruling, similar as between the teams in ACDG3.

Probably some more things should be added, but I would like to bring forth this one:
'Order recieves votes in Curia depending on the population count in bases belonging to it.'

That would introduce competition between orders to get maximum out of their holdings.

[fed1943]

The only problem I see about missions or deeds is if they are useless or harmful to the faction(conclave).
To divert 4/5 unities to pop once half-way world distance doesn't seem to me very good.Conversely,connecting Order'votes with population seems a very good idea(population is good).
Best regards,

[Illuminatus]

Steps for the next demogame

I see it is a bit chaotic here, people are polling about settings of the game and others are discussing Conclave internal structure while no firm decisions have been made.

I do not recognize the use of SMAniaC or the Conclave for demogame as final yet. We haven't heard the voice of many about it and although no strong alternative has been presented try to see how are your ideas recieved by the rest of the community.

The way I see it you should decide the following:

a) Officialy confirm if people want a SPDG or a MPDG via poll
b) SMAC or SMACX (also poll)
c) Use a modified or a normal game.
I. Will you use a mod?
II. Which mod will you use if point I. is positive? (in other words see if majority goes with SMAniaC)
[the following is mostly redundant if a mod is chosen]
III. Will the AI be boosted?
IV. Changes to alphax.txt
V. Will the CMN assist the AI and how?
d) Which faction(s) to use?
f) Game settings (map, opponents etc.)
g) Do you wish secret missions, quests etc.

I suggest you combine point a), b) and the main c) point (I.) into a single poll.

I am leaving for the weekend but when I return I would like to see some clarification on this issues.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
try to see how are your ideas recieved by the rest of the community.

I've posted three polls in the ACDG forum to get feedback on the first three points. The threads are noted following each point.

Originally posted by Illuminatus
a) Officialy confirm if people want a SPDG or a MPDG via poll

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150574

Originally posted by Illuminatus
b) SMAC or SMACX (also poll)

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150576

Originally posted by Illuminatus
c) Use a modified or a normal game.
I. Will you use a mod?
II. Which mod will you use if point I. is positive? (in other words see if majority goes with SMAniaC)
[the following is mostly redundant if a mod is chosen]
III. Will the AI be boosted?
IV. Changes to alphax.txt
V. Will the CMN assist the AI and how?

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=150577

Originally posted by Illuminatus
d) Which faction(s) to use?
f) Game settings (map, opponents etc.)
g) Do you wish secret missions, quests etc.

Probably best to defer polling on points d), f) and g) until the first three are resolved, since choice of SMAX (and SMAniaC) would change possibilities of faction, opponents and MP would eliminate the desirability of secret missions.

Originally posted by Illuminatus
I suggest you combine point a), b) and the main c) point (I.) into a single poll.

It seems simpler to break down points a), b) and c) into separate polls.

Originally posted by Illuminatus
I am leaving for the weekend but when I return I would like to see some clarification on this issues.

I've put three polls out on the first three issues. If there are strong pluralities, can we consider those issues final and move onto the remaining three issues?

[vyeh]

Originally posted by binTravkin

There are several very important differences between 'province' and 'order'

1.province is a defined geographical area, Order is not, it's geographical representation can be scattered or compact depending on the whereabouts of parishes who are members on the Order.

In Maniac's Constitution, there is no constraint against isolated bases joining together. In one of his posts, he speculated that bases controlled by a single Order would join together. So in keeping with KISS, I'm suggesting we eliminate provinces and let bases join an Order (or not) as their residents choose.

Originally posted by binTravkin
2.province is a step into hierarchy base-province-faction, Order is not. Order is a group of people who try to pull out their aims faction-wide

If we eliminate provinces, then they are not a step in the hierarchy. I agree with your definition of Order.

Originally posted by binTravkin
3.province has no idelogical background, Order has.
4.province cannot be equated to party, Order can (due to points 2. and 3.)

If Orders are attempting to control bases (directly or indirectly), then bases will have ideological backgrounds and they will most likely join together with other bases with compatible backgrounds. Thus provinces, if we have them, would end up with ideological backgrounds.

You can't have it both ways. If bases belong (maybe via their residents) to Orders and they can choose which provinces to belong to, then provinces will be ideological.

Originally posted by binTravkin
For me it's a question of fun and I find much more opportunities of RP and fun in the concept of Order, not in province.

Fine eliminate provinces.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Thus, I would edit:
2. Province < Order.

And go with orders not to have overlapping concepts.

If Provinces < Order, then there is an overlapping concept (the Order is subsuming the Province). In keeping with KISS, it makes more sense to eliminate Province and have bases responding to two different authorities (which I believe is similar to one of your earlier posts): bases < Conclave and bases < Orders.

So bases would be governed by the Conclave laws, but may be affiliated with an Order and forward an ideological agenda.

Originally posted by binTravkin
The definition of Order would then be:

'An Order is a group of ideologically close individuals, who are striving to achieve their political and other goals through Order's unified power.
Order can have a property, in a form of bases ruled by the participants of the order and anything those bases and units produced in them produce.
Joining of an Order is voluntarily, however opportunities to migrate between Orders are limited*.'

* - here should be some ruling, similar as between the teams in ACDG3.

I'm in general agreement.

I'd stated it this way:

An Order is a group of ideologically close individuals, who are striving to achieve their political and other goals through the Order's unified power. Orders can CONTROL property, THROUGH bases CONTROLLED by participants of the Order. AN ORDER GETS (AND KEEPS) CONTROL OF A BASE BY ACQUIRING (AND RETAINING) A MAJORITY OF THE RESIDENTS OF THE BASE. Joining an Order is voluntary; however opportunities FOR PLAYERS to migrate between Orders are limited. A BASE CAN SHIFT AMONG ORDERS IF AN ORDER LOSES ITS MAJORITY IN THE BASE DUE TO IMMIGRATION, EMIGRATION OR RESIDENTS LEAVING THE ORDER.

Originally posted by binTravkin
Probably some more things should be added, but I would like to bring forth this one:
'Order recieves votes in Curia depending on the population count in bases belonging to it.'

That would introduce competition between orders to get maximum out of their holdings.

I'd like to hear from Maniac. Under his two poll structure, the Pontifex would be elected by a majority of the players. His second poll would let Orders select the Curia based on the number of votes they control. At this point, I don't have a problem with their votes being based on the population of the bases controlled by their members.

[Mart]

Please see this thread for setup discussion:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4353698#post4353698

[vyeh]

At this point, the SP v. MP poll

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=150574

has the following results: 5 SP, 3 MP and 1 either.

The SMAC v. SMACX poll

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=150576

has the following results: 1 SMAC, 4 SMACX, 3 either.

The modified v. vanilla poll

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=150577

has the following results: 4 SMAniaC, 2 vanilla - AI boosted and assisted, 2 vanilla - AI boosted and not assisted, 1 vanilla - AI assisted and not boosted, 1 two of the above.

Originally posted by Illuminatus
I am leaving for the weekend but when I return I would like to see some clarification on this issues.

Since Illuminatus would like clarification, I've posted two additional polls. Note that mart7x5 has started a thread on game setup.

Originally posted by Illuminatus
d) Which faction(s) to use?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150622

Originally posted by Illuminatus
f) Game settings (map, opponents etc.)

See the thread by mart7x5

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150572

Originally posted by Illuminatus
g) Do you wish secret missions, quests etc.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150623

[GeoModder]

You guys definitely have to start a SP demogame. Only 6 voters?