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**frenzyfol** · October 14, 2010, 22:49

You have some good points, though I disagree with many.

*Culture/Science/Money slider lost = poor (good, fun tool eliminated)
Disagree to some extent. Cash was useless in civ IV, it may be exploitable at the moment but its a great leap forward separating it from science. Having someway to tax your income to create happiness may be a good idea, so the old culture bar might be worth while.

Diplomacy = bad (non-existent and boring)
Diplomacy is much better in civ V. Its not black and white, AI gives you 10 turns to get ready for war. No tech trade whoring which ruins early eras. Single side open border agreements.

Naval combat = bad (boring)
How is it worse that IV? I can do extra things like bombard coastal cities. It could be improved by making zone control use the bombard range but other than that its a vast improvement over IV.

No corporations = poor
Corporations were overpowered and unbalanced. They could be implemented better

Great people = poor
The implementation in V is almost the same as IV. You dont like the individual GP bars? Explain

No Movies = poor
Movies are overrated. Once Ive seen them I hardly ever want to see them again. These just add unnecessary cost to development that could be better spent elsewhere

1UPT = bad (boring)
You can have your stacks. I like 1upt, though I would of made it One Active Unit Per tile to minimize some of the annoying movement issues. Also, the AI needs to actually understand it.

**Axel Rhodd** · October 15, 2010, 00:02

I really want to like the game but...

1. huge info windows/buttons. For example, in Civ 4 the running score was tiny and tucked away in the corner - unobtrusive.
Now I sure can see the score but need to open ridiculously large window - was the interface designed to lure 10 yo girls who like big icons and pretty colours?

2. I miss more stats and overall info on my progress - power graph, top 5 cities etc

**Ijuin** · October 15, 2010, 00:04

What I don't like about the new Great People system is where instead of settling one directly in a city for the bonus, I have to build an improvement on the terrain where it can be pillaged by enemies (and also I have to forgo the farm/mine/trade post/lumber mill on that hex).

**OzzyKP** · October 15, 2010, 00:14

Ok, my turn:

1UPT = excellent (finally, no stack of doom! more interesting and strategic combat!)
Embarking = excellent (no more building transports! such a great improvement!)
Resource dependencies = excellent (makes sense)
Cities able to defend actively = excellent
Ranged combat = excellent (each game seems to take a different approach and each seems lacking, I think they finally got it!)
Culture = excellent (I love how tiles are acquired one by one, makes it more natural, I love how culture is linked to social policies)
Victory conditions = excellent (I love the changes to cultural and domination victories. Diplomatic victory is more interesting because of city states, spaceship victory is better for having to transport pieces)
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Social Policies = good (not really better than what we had… still they are good)
City States = good (I love city states, but yea, the balance can be tweaked)
Global happiness = good
New battle system = good (i like the way hit points are handled and that units don't fight to the death every time)
Diplomacy = good (no tech trading! more interesting offers are possible! things are still buggy and unbalanced though, that definitely needs to be fixed)
No world wonder movies = good (spend your time on other things, who cares about wonder movies?)
Interface = good (nice, clean, minimalist. Though Jobe pointed out that some tasks require more clicks and time than before, which is a good point)
Great generals = good (I like the way these work better than in civ4, far more useful to have at the front lines than a super unit with extra XP)
Road cost = good
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Hexes = indifferent (i still don't understand what the big deal is, who cares?)
Science = indifferent
Units (types etc) = indifferent
Worker improvements = indifferent
Barbs/ruins = indifferent
No espionage = indifferent (it'll be added in an expansion pack, no worries)
No religion = indifferent (it'll be added in an expansion pack, no worries)
No corporations = indifferent (it'll be added in an expansion pack, no worries)
No leader traits/different leaders per civ = indifferent (the civs are more unique now without leader traits)
Graphics = indifferent (looks good to me, I don't care too much about graphics)
Music = indifferent (i usually play my own music anyhow, so I don't care)
Unbalanced civs = indifferent (I've only played like 4 civs so far, so I don't know enough to comment on this)
No corruption/unhealthy = indifferent (I don't care about this, maybe they'll add it later. *shrug*)
Culture/Science/Money slider lost = indifferent (eh, I wouldn't call this a good or fun mechanic. You spent most of the game with science maximized anyhow, I like that they are separated)
Naval combat = indifferent (much stronger and more useful than in civ4, though hurt by the fact they can't stack with embarked units)
End game screens = indifferent (have only beat a game once... but movies again? who cares?)
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Buildings = poor (Expensive both to the economy and to build. I build much less than in previous games)
Promotions = poor (seem kind of weak and boring, but the ability to insta-heal with a promotion is a very cool addition!)
Great people = poor (I prefer the super specialist over the tile improvement, the tile improvements seem very weak, and no +50% science buildings! overall weaker than before)
Advisors = poor (Another crappy gimmick like wonder movies and such that I'm sure I'll ignore for the entire game)
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General lack of information = bad (this is a big problem, the civilopedia is pretty much useless, and when it does actually have information it seems to actually be *wrong* half the time. How can you learn a new game when all the information provided is wrong or missing?! )
MP connection issues = bad (ugh, why can Firaxis never, ever, ever get this right? I thought steam would be an improvement. With all the patches and expansions, Civ4 was still horrendously difficult to connect with, and now Civ V is off to a very bad start as well... why?)
Resource hog = bad (civ4 always ran slow on my computer, this one also runs and loads really slow, *sigh*...)
AI = bad (not that I ever expect the AI to ever be anything other than bad, but... yea, it is bad)

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**OneFootInTheGrave** · October 15, 2010, 18:54

Originally posted by frenzyfol View Post

You have some good points, though I disagree with many.

*Culture/Science/Money slider lost = poor (good, fun tool eliminated)
Disagree to some extent. Cash was useless in civ IV, it may be exploitable at the moment but its a great leap forward separating it from science. Having someway to tax your income to create happiness may be a good idea, so the old culture bar might be worth while.

Diplomacy = bad (non-existent and boring)
Diplomacy is much better in civ V. Its not black and white, AI gives you 10 turns to get ready for war. No tech trade whoring which ruins early eras. Single side open border agreements.

Naval combat = bad (boring)
How is it worse that IV? I can do extra things like bombard coastal cities. It could be improved by making zone control use the bombard range but other than that its a vast improvement over IV.

No corporations = poor
Corporations were overpowered and unbalanced. They could be implemented better

Great people = poor
The implementation in V is almost the same as IV. You dont like the individual GP bars? Explain

No Movies = poor
Movies are overrated. Once Ive seen them I hardly ever want to see them again. These just add unnecessary cost to development that could be better spent elsewhere

1UPT = bad (boring)
You can have your stacks. I like 1upt, though I would of made it One Active Unit Per tile to minimize some of the annoying movement issues. Also, the AI needs to actually understand it.

diplomacy does not work, nor does it have information, you will be at war no matter what etc... = broken

Naval combat = few turns to sink a ship that I know will die, after repeating this 20 times = boring... no excitement, no variety, nothing, not just boring, painfully boring, after trying a sea map, now I am playing Pangea with low sea levels to avoid all this if possible

Corporations = great late game concept which could have been expanded upon and made better in the new game, but abandoned

Great people = tile improvements?!?
Or even worse, wait for them, than beeline any available science = ridiculously powerful to skip eras.
Great engineers = world wonders + merchants = the same as before and at least a bit that survived intact - for the better of this game so overall I just said it is "poor" and not "bad" due to them surviving the change in the better form.
Great generals = walking 25% bonus = micromanagement, and useless at that, because you will win by making a better empire and AI should be at least semi-decent in a tight game for this to make any sense at all... but even if that was the case (which it is not) it would still be micromanagement waste 90% of the time, ultimately just a golden age generator... Great artists are also poorer versions of former selves. No city specialists from Great people either, that is a loss right there too... I was actually kind by just saying "poor" for this.

Ah movies - I like them, but for sure this is one of the minor issues... actually very minor, but I'd still like them, and my daughter likes them too.

1UPT = if we went with your suggestion to minimize some of the movement hassle it would be already better, even better if you could actually stack for storage and movement somewhere else, and the best if AI would actually understand it...

as it is 1UPT is at best a sandbox concept, which once explored a bit is just a drag, and a serious time drag at that... unfortunately the game has one even greater drag than this, and that is waiting for turn ends towards the mid game onwards, which together with 1UPT micromanagement makes it drag^2.

**OneFootInTheGrave** · October 15, 2010, 19:03

Originally posted by OzzyKP View Post

Ok, my turn:

1UPT = excellent (finally, no stack of doom! more interesting and strategic combat!)

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On some stuff in line, on some not, probably agreeing more than not overall

... but as it is, I have no idea how long time players like you, Ming, Rah, Yin and some other testers can enjoy 1UPT... for a newbie, I can understand, but that you enjoy moving the figures around, and you know that AI is already hopelessly beat, and even if it was competent, to defend "not stacking" in any form?

So you actually enjoy moving units one at a time across the map???

but I guess people are just different...

**OzzyKP** · October 16, 2010, 16:29

It isn't a matter of enjoying moving all the units across the map, it is tedious, I will grant you that. But it fixes a flawed system in Civ4 and creates more strategically interesting combat. Every new iteration of Civ people accuse of being "dumbed down" but if the argument in favor of stacks is that it is simpler to move units across the map (which is true) that seems to be a dumbing down of the game for simplicity sake.

**Proteus_MST** · October 16, 2010, 17:37

Originally posted by frenzyfol View Post

...
Great people = poor
The implementation in V is almost the same as IV. You dont like the individual GP bars? Explain
...

I assume the OP refers to the fact that in Civ IV (aside from their prime fucntion) with GPs you could build city buildings (for example the scientific academy), or settle them as super specialist, whereas in Civ V instead you can only build tile improvements with them, which have to be worked by your citizens and destroy the tile improivements that were frmerly on that tile, making GPs in Civ V much less useful than GPs from Civ IV.
I observe it in my own Civ V games ...
in Civ IV great scientists would always get used for scientific academies and many of the other kinds of GPs would get settled within my cities.
in Civ V however I use them more for golden ages, than for anything else, including great scientists.

**jnh140** · October 16, 2010, 17:54

Some points I agree with, some points I disagree.

Sorry, 1upt is a fix to a huge problem. Different people are different, I put 1upt above hexes on your list. Some results of that change are a tad draconian-- for instance, no stacking anywhere ever-- but mods remove these restrictions already, so if you hate it that much, change it out.

**notyoueither** · October 18, 2010, 13:00

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave View Post

diplomacy does not work, nor does it have information, you will be at war no matter what etc... = broken

I'm finding diplomacy is working quite a bit better than in any other civ game to date.

It is possible to remain at peace for a very long time, and to deal with all of the AIs in some fashion or other. It is possible to be a runt civ next to a super power and not be attacked.

**Ming** · October 19, 2010, 20:36

The biggest change I see (beside the obvious ones) is the fact that things have been toned down. Food resources provide very little extra food. Wonders don't provide the big advantages that many did in Civ IV. GP just aren't as useful. At times, it just seems like Civ-Lite

**Jaybe** · October 20, 2010, 01:15

GP just aren't as useful.

IF you have a lot of maritime CS allies, it's VERY easy to run lots of specialists (especially when specialists contribute to happiness & food as with some policies). GP production in late game can be uh, "overabundant" I shall say. When a minimal specialist golden age is 5 turns (epic speed, in addition to that +50% GA length wonder), or a merchant trade mission is almost 1k gold, I don't have a problem with their "lack of usefulness."

Four merchants plus 4 other specialists in most of my 9 (controlled) cities last game, with an absurd +11 food in my NON-capital cities!

I'm finding a large gold surplus is VERY handy for when war comes knocking. Purchase all those units you weren't keeping as a large standing army.

... bleepin' Persians started conquering some of my CS allies. Had to do something about that.

**Axel Rhodd** · October 20, 2010, 02:29

Originally posted by Ming View Post

The biggest change I see (beside the obvious ones) is the fact that things have been toned down. Food resources provide very little extra food. Wonders don't provide the big advantages that many did in Civ IV. GP just aren't as useful. At times, it just seems like Civ-Lite

I think u have just explained to me why I get bored with the game very quickly - no sense of achievement from grabbing of resources, building Wonders and generating GPs.
I basically started ignoring wonders and GPs and concentrate on combat instead- but it gets pretty boring after while and now I find myself playing Civ IV again...

**Ming** · October 20, 2010, 08:51

Originally posted by Jaybe View Post

IF you have a lot of maritime CS allies, it's VERY easy to run lots of specialists (especially when specialists contribute to happiness & food as with some policies). GP production in late game can be uh, "overabundant" I shall say.

True enough... and one of the reasons they don't seem to great. They just aren't special anymore.

When a minimal specialist golden age is 5 turns (epic speed, in addition to that +50% GA length wonder), or a merchant trade mission is almost 1k gold, I don't have a problem with their "lack of usefulness."

I play regular speed, and a 4 turn golden age doesn't "excite" me. And the merchant trade missions are 600. At least in Civ IV, it was fun to send/risk them to go great distances and get 1500 bucks.

I used to love stacking them in a city to create a mega science or mega production or mega money city... now, you just create an improved tile, that actually destroys the improvement you originally built on it. It just doesn't seem special or great.

And great generals just aren't the same anymore... no super units, no super healers, no military cities that crank out units with ton's of promotions to start.

Great people just don't seem so great anymore.

However, I do like the fact that a great scientist can be used for any available science.

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