What would you like to see in a MoM 2?

[MariOne]

OH, I forgot:
said the above about units, the idea of swarms is an interesting one, it could be added without disrupting the essence of MoM units concept.
Only problem, is that the "spearmen" unit already begins with just one sword, you'll need to readjust the unit stats system to make place for units made up of much more and much *weaker* individual figures...
That could be partly addressed for instance by giving to a swarm's figure a mere 10% to-hit for their single-sword, instead of the default 30%...

[MariOne]

Here's a sample.

Some simple math (and Excel functions ) show that a 10% to-hit swarm needs 22-23 figure to be comparable to the distribution curve of a Spearmen unit's chances to actually land N hits (regardless of shields).

If we lower the swarm's to-hit to 5%, 40 "insects" can be allowed without making the swarm stronger than spearmen. I attach a plot.

We could make a swarm peculiar in that it does not gain "strength" by experience, but breeds with time, allowing it to start small in numbers but to increase significantly beyond its startign size (unlike units), becoming eventually devastating.
Also, swords/arrows would have very little effect to damage it, whereas fiery breath, or poison, or mana balls would act as deadly "pesticide"...


But but... would all this really add to gameplay? And ultimately, to fun?

[Sandman]

Also, the game *already* provides a Hero/units "integration", in that the units stacked with a Hero can gain some benefit in experience / combatstats, if the Hero has the appropriate skills...

I suppose, but I feel that heroes generally look out of place with one whole square to themselves. What if heroes came in multiple unit groups? i.e. a paladin and his two squires, or a wizard and an apprentice, or a ranger and several hawks, or a pair of equally powerful genies? It would be especially cool if some of the follower type units could become heroes in their own right with enough experience.

We could make a swarm peculiar in that it does not gain "strength" by experience, but breeds with time, allowing it to start small in numbers but to increase significantly beyond its startign size (unlike units), becoming eventually devastating.
Also, swords/arrows would have very little effect to damage it, whereas fiery breath, or poison, or mana balls would act as deadly "pesticide"...

I agree.

But but... would all this really add to gameplay? And ultimately, to fun?

The most important question. Swarms make more sense if one wants to put certain creatures into the game, rather than giant size versions of the creature (i.e. the doombat, surely a swarm of bats is better?). There is a problem of how useful swarms are to the player; is it suicide to take on an enemy without at least one swarm, or can you leave them at home?

Having said that, the whole point of MoM is that there is too much to use all at once, and there is no *best* unit, so I think it would be perfectly acceptable to have swarms open as one of many options to the player. There could be a retort which grants a wizard additional swarm powers, say cheaper summoning or faster growth.

[Thiorn]

Ahh, a new version of MoM; that would be simply spectacular.

One thing I would like to see is a Planar Creation Spell.
For example, you cast this "Planar Genesis". You are asked to pay mana for it. So, for each, lets say, 5 Mp spended, you get +1x1 extra grid to the new map (with a minimum of 100 Mp spended, and a max of, lest say, 1000 Mp).
Then a planar gate is created in the city holding your tower (any previous gate there is destroyed,).

Now, you have your new plane. Depending on the magical realm you are specialliced into, the squares of the new map are under that influence (like the one found around a node).

But the new plane would need upkeep, about 1 Mp every 4 squares (or there could be a pre made table of values for diferent sizes of planes).

To add a better gameplay, some spells to affect the plane in question could be made, like a sort of "Planar Cancelation", etc.

Note: If "Planar Seal" is active, is impossible to cast this spell.



Now, the game already have a very good spell tree (that still has home for a lot of improvement). But what about a second tree, with technologies?

However, they must be technologies related to the "time" of the game: Getting to the future would not be very satisfiyign.

What I mean is a system to, somehow, regulate the avaliability of buildings, add some new ones and new units, as well as the possibility of doing "tree crossing" (to get a certain kind of spell you need a certain tipe of tech, etc).

Examples:

"Clockwork Mechanisms": This would allow you to build Clock Towers in your cities, giving the sence of time, therefore increasing production.
But, if you combien this tech with, lets say, a spell called Animate Artifact, you can create Golems.

"Composite Bow": Something like this could be used to improve existing bowmen, but only avaliable to races that already can use bowmen, for example.

Then you can have techs for diferent kinds of siege machines, ships, armors, and a myriad of things.
But techs should be more as a "support" feature, not primordial. The last thing you would wish is to take protagonism from the spells.

[NeOmega]

That is, of course this is just *our opinion*, but it's not a "just because", it is grounded upon motivated arguments, which you might not agree upon but which give solid reasons for our statements.

I played it for a week before I shelved it?

Anyway, it's no use to rekindle CivIII wars also in this MoM forum

Too late, war's rekindled.

as far as MoM 2 goes, eye candy makes the game. It would be ridiculous to put out another civ II tile style game.

tel me in that week or 2 months you played it.... (I probably have only played it for two months total), did you play any level above regent?

Anyway, it's no use to rekindle CivIII wars also in this MoM forum

[Sikander]

What I hope for in a computer game is that it will remain interesting to me for a long time. MoM, SMAC, MOO2 all managed do this, Civ 3 did not. I enjoy the complex systems in the games I mentioned. There are a lot of styles of play that are viable, and the games are so complex that even within these styles (turtle, ICS, high tech conquest etc.) there are numerous small differences in tactics, favorite units etc. Look at the difference that starting with a certain race, or with a certain style of wizard, or on Myrror make. You can say the same thing (though to a somewhat lesser extent) about the factions in SMAC or the races (including custom races) of MOO2. Thus while I purchase one game, there are a lot of possible variations to explore, both in the initial starting conditions and in the subsequent gameplay.

I don't play computer games for a challenge, as they (the AI) are not all that good at the style of games that I enjoy. My fun comes from inventing new tactics and strategies and trying them out. The more varied and numerous the game systems are the longer that game is going to hold my interest as I try different combinations. Thus for me games are more a voyage of discovery than a continuing proof that humans can beat the crap out of an AI on anything more complicated than chess.

I agree with Mario that a port to a modern system / OS would be enough for me to lay down my money. If there are improvements to the graphics and bug fixes and tweaks to the AI or systems for balance purposes, great. But I don't need a whole new game based upon the idea of MoM, unless of course by some chance it happens to be fantastic. I'd almost rather have a refitted game that I'm sure that I'll like than take a chance though. The reductionism that made Civ 3's AI better is fine for some, but it doesn't float my boat, and I'll have to keep using that old DOS boot disk if that is the turn that any MoM 2 project takes.

[BigFurryMonster]

Hahaha - I just thought of tactical combat in a MP PBEM game...

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Sikander
What I hope for in a computer game is that it will remain interesting to me for a long time. MoM, SMAC, MOO2 all managed do this, Civ 3 did not. I enjoy the complex systems in the games I mentioned. There are a lot of styles of play that are viable, and the games are so complex that even within these styles (turtle, ICS, high tech conquest etc.) there are numerous small differences in tactics, favorite units etc. Look at the difference that starting with a certain race, or with a certain style of wizard, or on Myrror make. You can say the same thing (though to a somewhat lesser extent) about the factions in SMAC or the races (including custom races) of MOO2. Thus while I purchase one game, there are a lot of possible variations to explore, both in the initial starting conditions and in the subsequent gameplay.

my favorite part about MoM also, the variety.

I don't play computer games for a challenge, as they (the AI) are not all that good at the style of games that I enjoy. My fun comes from inventing new tactics and strategies and trying them out.

And it sucks if they always work because the AI is weak.

The more varied and numerous the game systems are the longer that game is going to hold my interest as I try different combinations. Thus for me games are more a voyage of discovery than a continuing proof that humans can beat the crap out of an AI on anything more complicated than chess.

I have tried many variations in Civ III, and failed many times. It makes tyhe victories that much sweeter.

I agree with Mario that a port to a modern system / OS would be enough for me to lay down my money. If there are improvements to the graphics and bug fixes and tweaks to the AI or systems for balance purposes, great. But I don't need a whole new game based upon the idea of MoM, unless of course by some chance it happens to be fantastic. I'd almost rather have a refitted game that I'm sure that I'll like than take a chance though. The reductionism that made Civ 3's AI better is fine for some, but it doesn't float my boat, and I'll have to keep using that old DOS boot disk if that is the turn that any MoM 2 project takes.

there already are ports to more modern OS's available, and those 1995 graphics are horrible by today's standards...
I don't quite understand what you are seeing as reductionism..... I played Civ II for over 4 years, and quite alot at that, Civ III improved many things... especially resources, trade and diplomacy. The artillery concept works fantastically, and the only disappointment I have is the air power system.

[Ozz]

If someone does do MOM2 i hope they don't do
anything but up the graphics and put a switch
in for the SOM.

I think Dune2 is better than Dune 2000 (even the graphics)

I think System Shock is better than System Shock 2

[PDifolco]

Well, MoM2... I dream of having EXACTLY the same game as the original, only up to at least Civ2-level tech standards (functional efficient Windows interface, no 3D whizbang necessary) with Internet/MP.

No additional loads of stuff that will mainly unbalance game/create problems !

Look at the Civ series : Civ1 was a Wonder, 2 was mostly an overhaul as I'm talking about, CTP was lost in the void of bad design, Civ3 I don't know but I'm not very impressed, it looks like it'll only force me to upgrade my rig ...

I've heard that Age of Wonders 2 was comparable to MoM, with additional 3D whizbang . .. Just can't find it in stores here in France (out of stocks)

BTW, I run MoM fine in W98SP without even having to launch DOS mode, and use MoSlo to reduce proc speed.
What you need is only max DOS memory free, clean config.sys and autoexec of all useless BS and it's ok .

I just can't get sound to work , my card never get recognized by the game ... No big deal, with my 4-speaker system MoM sound isn't impressive !

As for graphics those of MoM , MOO1 and generally everything < 1994 look bad, but I'm Ok with MOO2, Civ2 or even EFS graphics - they are 640*480 or better, that's ok for me.

[Rex Little]

More magic items with fancy names. I suggest an enchanted meataxe, named (what else?) the Eldritch Cleaver.

[Thiorn]

I've heard that Age of Wonders 2 was comparable to MoM, with additional 3D whizbang . .. Just can't find it in stores here in France (out of stocks)

Comparable, yes, but not as good nor complete.
AoW 2 is a very good game, and the MultiPlayer mode is very fun (I have been through very long games by MP).
The game tries to emulate the original MoM, but with a different interface, and much less detailed.

The game, however, boost a very good set of interesting features, such as completely different units for each race (there are 15 races with 7 different units each). The fact that you have a Dominion (an area on which you can cast spells, that can be expanded with mage towers and heroes, between some other means) gives a different twist to the game.
The battle modes are the best of all. It gathers the good and varied 3D fights from MoM and adds some new things (such as forts, better city enviroment, speciall buildings, etc) and very good graphics. Definitely, the best improvement was here.
But, saddly, there are few spells (no more than 20 per magic realm, which now separate in Water, Fire, Air, Earth, Death, Life and Cosmos). Few heroes and lack of some very small but good details from MoM.

The game, though very good, with high replay value, exelent multiplayer and, overall, quite fun, is not but a pale shadow of the original MoM.
Still, I advice getting it to any MoM fan.

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Rex Little
More magic items with fancy names. I suggest an enchanted meataxe, named (what else?) the Eldritch Cleaver.

Use the itemmaker program (included) to make your own magic items that can be found in the game.

[darcy]

Yes, AoW2 is good, but as you said, there aren't many spells. Also the battles lack the epic feel, as only 5 men per side are allowed.

Personally, I think there is another game in the succession of MoM which captures its spirit better:

Dominions: Priests, Prophets & Pretenders(free demo available)

The graphics are pixellated and the interface is cumbersome, but it's so loaded with units, races, spells, items and huge epic battles that I find it very addictive even in single player mode.

I find the undead nation, Ermor, particularly fascinating. In other games the Undeads are just another faction with a little life magic vulnerability, but in Dominions they spread like a plague and corrupt the land. They are powerful, but everyone else hates them, even in multiplayer, because they leave only useless wastelands behind. There are also underwater nations, and castle sieges.... I could go on, but I sound like a fanboy already.

[Richard Bruns]

Originally posted by darcy
Personally, I think there is another game in the succession of MoM which captures its spirit better:

Dominions: Priests, Prophets & Pretenders(free demo available)

The graphics are pixellated and the interface is cumbersome, but it's so loaded with units, races, spells, items and huge epic battles that I find it very addictive even in single player mode.

I downloaded this demo and tried it out. The demo has almost all the stuff that the main game has, and the complexity of the game makes it very confusing at first. But then I downloaded the quick start tutorial, and that helped a lot by allowing me to start playing the game without the bewildering process of customizing a new pretender.

It certainly is loaded with stuff, and many things about it are very impressive. But there are a lot of flaws that scream "Small Company Syndrone" an the micromanagemet was already starting to get annoying. For example, searching for magic sites is incredibly tedious, since I have to get a mage or priest of each magic type, move it to a province, and turn on the search command, and repeat for every province that I control. Since it does not keep track of what provinces you have searched, you have to memorize or keep a manual list of what provinces have been searched by what kinds of magic users. I would like to skip this whole process, but it is the only possible way to boost your production of mana crystals.

There is also no city building to speak of, and that hurts the game a lot. You are basically limited to whatever sites happen to be in the province, assuming you can find them. For example, the only way to build sages is to take over a province with a library. Most provinces you take over are worthless, only providing tax revenue to support military production in the home province. But still, it does manage to be quite addicting.

Interestingly enough, one of the most annoying aspects of the battles is exactly the same as MoM: your commanders can be killed by lucky archer shots before you have a chance to do anything.