Israel

[GeoModder]

I of course can't tell about the world at large, but I do know that more or less regular church attendance in my country is very low, I would be surprised if it was 5% of the population. And as far as my gut feeling goes, the same counts for at least the northern half of the EU. That's already the bigger part of 300m of those 3,2b you claim to be religious in that part of Europe alone.

As far as I could determine, Judaism was the first of the monotheistic religions. Fat deal one can give it the label 'influential' then.

[Kataphraktoi]

I dont know what religion you are refering to, but if it is Christianity, they accept the Tanakh(old testament) as being divinely recieved, as well as believing in the major prophets(Abraham, Moses etc...) as well as accepting the Jewish creation story as fact. While Christians do not accept the old laws in leviticus, it is because Paul of Tsauris taught that it is more important to be religious in spirit, than in law(such as the laws of kashrut). While Christianity is much different than Judaism, it has the same foundations, and its founder was a religious Jew(Jesus).
In reference to Islam, They accept the major prophets in Judaism, and several of the laws. They regard the Torah as being divinely inspired, if corrupted. Jews are considered 'people of the book' because they are thought to worship the same god.
Im not sure quite what you are saying, but a major part of both Islam and Christianity is the Jewish foundation. I do not think either of these religions would exist without Judaism.

christianity yes.while i follow the 10 commands which i asumme your refering to,nothing else in the first 5 books applys (afaik atm) but overlapping all that is following jesus,which the jews dont accept. jewish teachings say for example that eating unclean meats is wrong and countless other stuff. that is mostly invalidated or overlayered by jesus\new testament

i dont know where you got your numbers,but church attendance is very low here in the states compared to before,and europe is low also on second hand reports

saying all judaism ''rooted'' religions are following jewish customs dosnt make sense

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I'm not sure the chinese existed since 900 BC (but I admit I don't know their history too well).

As far as Egypt and Babylon goes - where exactly is Babylon right now? Egypt, while it is a nation right now, has very little of the symptoms and culture it had before. The local culture of every middle east nation (except Israel) was mostly (but not completely) washed away with Islam.

The rest of this argument about Israel's legitimacy as a nation in Civ isn't worth wading into- but this comment about China must be corrected- the Xia culture of china is alleged to have existed crica 4500 BC, while it is highly disputed- it has some strong evidence for existence.

What senethro later cites- 1500 BC is probably the Shang culture- two cultures away from the Qin culture which united China under Qin Shihuangdi and built the Great Wall, etc. Then the Han culture took over and officially brought prosperity to the nation.

Sorry Sirotnikov- no nation on Earth was as technologically advanced as the Chinese until the late middle ages in Europe- they invented the rocket, paper, the printing press, advanced agricultural tools, basic geology, navigated to the tip of africa, traded with half of the known world, and did much much more.

Zhongwen shi hen da hao

[Kataphraktoi]

Sorry Sirotnikov- no nation on Earth was as technologically advanced as the Chinese until the late middle ages in Europe- they invented the rocket, paper, the printing press, advanced agricultural tools, basic geology, navigated to the tip of africa, traded with half of the known world, and did much much more.

before i say anything i support china being a civ,and im with Sirotnikov on not knowing precise china-details....

they didnt use those rockets as weapons,and didnt expand gunpowder to direct action like europeans did,or at least not right away. they cut off trade on the whim of one emporer and never resumed for hundreds of years,IIRC. they got all that tech-and just stopped. europe kept going,even when out-teched and what did china really add to the world?yeah they got that stuff...but the western areas duplicated most of it independently later

[RGBVideo]

Not another one of these threads...

After watching CivIV for a few months, the only complaint that I have is that Israel isnt in the game.

Mod it in.

I think that the cultural contributions that Israel has made throughout the years is substantial, even if early Judah and Israel were destroyed. It might be mentioned that Israel is one of the only nations to have been destroyed and then re-established over 1500 years later.

No.

Maybe this is just bickering

Yes.

they didnt use those rockets as weapons

Ah yes, the TRUE measurement of progress -- how efficiently you can maim, torture and kill your opponents.

[Sirotnikov]

Sorry Sirotnikov- no nation on Earth was as technologically advanced as the Chinese until the late middle ages in Europe- they invented the rocket, paper, the printing press, advanced agricultural tools, basic geology, navigated to the tip of africa, traded with half of the known world, and did much much more

Ah yes, but it took ages for their inventions to ever take fame, and until the late medeival times, they haven't really affected a huge part of the world.

Printed press in china had very little effect on the world. On the other hand, once it got to europe and people began printing books, bibles, newspapers and what not - there began a revolution of thought.

Not that I'm saying chinese shouldn't be included though.

The Israelite Jews haven't invented too much. Many of the laws and religious rules were already developed in ancient Babylon and Sumaria. The difference is - Israelites eventually knew how to market it well enough. Though we do owe quite alot to one bloke called Jeshua from Nazareth ;-)

Israel wasn't a huge super-power, but it was a power to consider. It was much more influtential eventually than the hitties, moabites, knaanites, adomites or what not. And it is the only one of those cultures that still has an effect on the world.

[GAZ082]

They never dominated, they were always dominated. For that, they are a minor Civ. If you see the Romans, Chinese, Germans, French, UK, Mali, etc. they have always being in some part of its history, big empires (well, France had lots of colonies in Africa, even they never won a war )

They have not influenced history. If the Bible would never existed, we would never know about the Jew nation.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by GAZ082
They have not influenced history. If the Bible would never exited, we would never know about the Jew nation.

Non-sequitur. If a lot of historical records had vanished, we wouldn't know about a lot of ancient civilizations. Keep in mind that it's only relatively recent archaeology that has uncovered a lot of the great civs of the past.

But how can you assert the Jewish people didn't influence history? What a preposterous sentiment. Considering 1/2 of the world's religious beliefs are founded on Judaism, this is a baffling statement.

[Kataphraktoi]

Ah yes, the TRUE measurement of progress -- how efficiently you can maim, torture and kill your opponents.

damn straight

But how can you assert the Jewish people didn't influence history? What a preposterous sentiment. Considering 1/2 of the world's religious beliefs are founded on Judaism, this is a baffling statement.

QFT

[tuckson]

Originally posted by GeoModder
I of course can't tell about the world at large, but I do know that more or less regular church attendance in my country is very low, I would be surprised if it was 5% of the population. And as far as my gut feeling goes, the same counts for at least the northern half of the EU. That's already the bigger part of 300m of those 3,2b you claim to be religious in that part of Europe alone.

As far as I could determine, Judaism was the first of the monotheistic religions. Fat deal one can give it the label 'influential' then.

Wel as for the Netherlands, according to our central bureau for statistics 50 % of our inhabitants member of one of the large christian churches, 42 % believes nothing and 9 % mixes up the rest (small christian, islam, ect...)

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Ah yes, but it took ages for their inventions to ever take fame, and until the late medeival times, they haven't really affected a huge part of the world.

Not a single civilization really affected a "huge" part of the world by that definition (until the late middle ages for precision).

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Printed press in china had very little effect on the world. On the other hand, once it got to europe and people began printing books, bibles, newspapers and what not - there began a revolution of thought.

Merely a cultural difference. And that 'revolution of thought' in Europe was also the pretext for some horrible religious wars in that continent.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by tuckson
Wel as for the Netherlands, according to our central bureau for statistics 50 % of our inhabitants member of one of the large christian churches, 42 % believes nothing and 9 % mixes up the rest (small christian, islam, ect...)

Officially, I'm a "member" of a religion as well. Does that mean that I'm religious because my parents baptized me as a newborn? To me, being religious means consistently following the rules and habits of ones religion and being fulfilled by that experience.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by LordShiva


N, how can I know if I like the discussion or not if I don't read the thread.

That's two good ones in a row, LordShiva!

[Killazer]

They should be added in an expansion for sure. As for the original release there were probably other more significant civs to include first as they could include only a limited amount for release.

[Joseph]

Re: Israel

Originally posted by Sharule
After watching CivIV for a few months, the only complaint that I have is that Israel isnt in the game. All the other religions have a civilization that represents their cultural development, except Judaism. I think that the cultural contributions that Israel has made throughout the years is substantial, even if early Judah and Israel were destroyed. It might be mentioned that Israel is one of the only nations to have been destroyed and then re-established over 1500 years later.
Maybe this is just bickering, but I do think it is time to add Israel as a civilation in the series. Its too late for the main game, but maybe in an expansion pack, or even a player mod (although it would have to be well done.)

I don't know if this game will be sold in the Arab world. But if Isreal was in would they buy it, or even aloud it to be sold in the Arab world?
On the other hand Israel/Jews have been with us for at lease 6,000 years, it should be in.