Israel

[Nikolai]

LS, if you don't like the discussion, just don't read the thread.

[ashbery]

Joke civ.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Not this discussion again. Please feel free to use the following as a template for future posts, replacing the appropriate placeholder letters:

I think nation X should be included as a civ. Also nation Y. They both did awesome things, like W and Z. X built the V, and Y has the U UU. Their leaders can be S and T.

Don't forget the classic:

Civ X doesn't deserve to be in the game! Civ X never did anything for the world, and Civs A, B and C are worthier, and they're not in the game. Why, Civ X never even accomplished [insert arbitrary cultural delineator Z here]. This is just political correctness run amok! Aaaaarrghffffllppppbbbbbbbbt!!! *foam, snarl*

[conmcb25]

Im sure it will be one of the first mods

[Fried-Psitalon]

This came up when C3C was released, as I recall, and the same arguments were used. I bet it did for PTW too, though I wasn't surfing 'Poly at that point. Anyone want to see how far back the "include Israel" template arguments go?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Nikolai
LS, if you don't like the discussion, just don't read the thread.

N, how can I know if I like the discussion or not if I don't read the thread.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
This came up when C3C was released, as I recall, and the same arguments were used. I bet it did for PTW too, though I wasn't surfing 'Poly at that point. Anyone want to see how far back the "include Israel" template arguments go?

On the other hand, the inclusion of religions as a major element of the game, and of Judaism as one of the religions, casts the issue in a somewhat different light in Civ 4. It's a bit odd having a religion in the game that cannot possibly be founded by the civilization that founded it in real life.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by MarkG
perhaps (and i'm just imagining stuff right now) there is plan for an israel civ in the expansion pack with ultra powerfull missionary unit

Yes I see how that makes sense, as Judaism is the largest and most powerful world religion in real life, and Israel successfully converted and assimilated all the palestinians ;-)

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Martinus

That's not true. The Chinese or Indian civilizations have existed much longer, and in the case of China as more or less continuous political entity. Both Egypt and Babylon were already prosperous and advanced civilizations when Israel emerged.

I'm not sure the chinese existed since 900 BC (but I admit I don't know their history too well).

As far as Egypt and Babylon goes - where exactly is Babylon right now? Egypt, while it is a nation right now, has very little of the symptoms and culture it had before. The local culture of every middle east nation (except Israel) was mostly (but not completely) washed away with Islam.

[Senethro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China

It was only a wiki away. 1500BC is suggested.


I'd also suggest that change and adaptation in civilizations are good things. Rigid conservatism is not normally a survival trait. Ancient Egypt and Babylon have left their mark on history and culture. I'd say thats as least a powerful a legacy as having surviving descendants. On that basis, their inclusion in Civ can't be denied.

[Sharule]

Historical Israel was a regional power at best, it was not a major player. During the Roman Empire, the Jews were some of the most annoying occupied peoples.
The reason that I think that jews should be in the game is their Religious and Cultural contribution.
The Jews Invented(or recorded) the history of Abraham. Let me remind you that over 3,514,000,000 people are part of an Abrahamic religion(that being Judaism, Islam or Christianity).
Thats well over half the world follows the teaching of Jews and their god.
Id say that by itself makes Israel worthy of inclusion as a Religious and Cultural civilization.

[sabrewolf]

every single time a civ game is released or an expansion pack, there is one of these threads... :sigh:

and always the same arguments.
one side speaks about the great achievements and influence of the jewish culture and religion, the other emphasises that that influence did not extend to a meaningful level in respect to geography and power.

hadn't isreal been artificially "restored" last century, this discussion would probably not even be going on.

anyhow, personally i don't care. and i don't think the boycott of the islamic world would be an issue. first: how many saudis and iranians play civ and 2nd: wouldn't they just looove to annihilate israel in every single game?

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Sharule
... Let me remind you that over 3,514,000,000 people are part of an Abrahamic religion(that being Judaism, Islam or Christianity).
Thats well over half the world follows the teaching of Jews and their god.

I wouldn't be so hasty of "forcing" all of them to be religious because you like it that way.

[Koriand'r]

i follow that god and i dont follow jewish teachings as do countless others im sure.you are taking a naive stance saying that sharule

every single time a civ game is released or an expansion pack, there is one of these threads... :sigh:

and always the same arguments.
one side speaks about the great achievements and influence of the jewish culture and religion, the other emphasises that that influence did not extend to a meaningful level in respect to geography and power.

hadn't isreal been artificially "restored" last century, this discussion would probably not even be going on.

anyhow, personally i don't care. and i don't think the boycott of the islamic world would be an issue. first: how many saudis and iranians play civ and 2nd: wouldn't they just looove to annihilate israel in every single game?

theres a dozen threads you can expect to see nowadays,including the jews.civ xyz,the xpack threads,etc ad nassuem seem to pop up always

[Sharule]

i follow that god and i dont follow jewish teachings as do countless others im sure.you are taking a naive stance saying that sharule

I dont know what religion you are refering to, but if it is Christianity, they accept the Tanakh(old testament) as being divinely recieved, as well as believing in the major prophets(Abraham, Moses etc...) as well as accepting the Jewish creation story as fact. While Christians do not accept the old laws in leviticus, it is because Paul of Tsauris taught that it is more important to be religious in spirit, than in law(such as the laws of kashrut). While Christianity is much different than Judaism, it has the same foundations, and its founder was a religious Jew(Jesus).
In reference to Islam, They accept the major prophets in Judaism, and several of the laws. They regard the Torah as being divinely inspired, if corrupted. Jews are considered 'people of the book' because they are thought to worship the same god.
Im not sure quite what you are saying, but a major part of both Islam and Christianity is the Jewish foundation. I do not think either of these religions would exist without Judaism.

I wouldn't be so hasty of "forcing" all of them to be religious because you like it that way.

I got these statistics from http://www.adherents.com/ Their reliability is fairly good. Check them out if you want. It really depends on how you define religious people. Are 'sunday christians' religious? Are ethnic Jews?

Regardless, religion being in Civilazation brings me to this conclusion. The Jewish people have one of the most influential religion in history. Every other religion has its own home country. Christianity - Rome, Hinduism/Buddhism - India, Taosm/Confusionism - China, Islam - Arabia. Why shouldnt Judaism have one? Seems a little akward.