Israel

[Egbert]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Biggest argument against Israel as a civ in the basic game is that they were not the first in the immediate area.

Would you replace Egypt?

No.

QUESTION
Throw out Egypt (or Babylon) to make a place for Israel?

ANSWER

[Sharule]

As much as I would like to see Israel in the game, the selection of other civs are good, and I wouldnt trade them(with the excepion of the Aztecs and Mali, but theyre 'token' civs for Africa and Early america). I certainly believe that Egypt and China deserve to be in the game more than Israel. Especially China, which has a significant religious, cultural, explorative and military history. Chine fits all the reqiurements to be in this game perfectly.

I think its more culture myth that modern Israel is somehow a legitamate successor to the ancient state.

And Egypt is the legitimate succesor to the ancient egypt?
Although, just something to note, Egypt is predomionantly Muslim. An Abrahmic religion, which Muhammad took inspiration from the Jews(or devinely recieved it from the God of Abraham).
While I would be hesitant to replace any current civs, I do think Israel should have been added. Mostly as a cultural and religious civilization.

[Alexander I]

Well, Israel isn't going to be in Civ4. It may be in an expansion. CtP had them, though it wasn't a Sid Meier game.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing them in a game.

I find it impressive that the Jews are still a people after the number of times they've been conquered and persecuted. They're persistent, and they're survivors.

And I think their culture has had more influence on western civilization than they've been given credit for in this thread.

Granted, I don't think the Jews ought to be a Civ4 civ on their own, rather the Israelites or Hebrews because it's more inclusive.

[Volstag]

You're basically asking us to tell you why Firaxis made the choices they did. Call me crazy, but I doubt any of us have the ability to divine their collective thought process.

When you're only allowed 18 candidates from a pool of several hundred, most are going to be left out, no? It's their game, and they can include/exclude whomever they want for any reason they want. Firaxis can't, and won't, add every country/ethnic-group that someone, somewhere, wants in the game.

And finally, I just don't understand why some people are so obsessed with inclusion/exclusion of certain countries. I feel that some people base the relative worth of their country on whether it appears in a silly game, or not -- which is weird. Or that, somehow, playing Germany (for example) is going to offer some deep historical insight on what it means to be German. In other words, other than a few cosmetic differences, and a handful of arbitrary traits, there's no fundamental difference between playing Germany, or Rome, or Isreal.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Sharule
And Egypt is the legitimate succesor to the ancient egypt?
Although, just something to note, Egypt is predomionantly Muslim. An Abrahmic religion, which Muhammad took inspiration from the Jews(or devinely recieved it from the God of Abraham).
While I would be hesitant to replace any current civs, I do think Israel should have been added. Mostly as a cultural and religious civilization.

Of course not! Modern Egypt is not been a continual state since the last dynasty. However, the difference between Israel and Egypt is that Egypt had an empire/culture lasting thousands of years even before the birth of Christ. Note that the leaders of Civ4 Egypt are from its "golden age" relative to the rest of the world, not General Nasser

Jews have most certainly had an effect on western culture much greater than their numbers would suggest, but Jews are not Israel. Israel has no place on the civ roster.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Volstag
You're basically asking us to tell you why Firaxis made the choices they did. Call me crazy, but I doubt any of us have the ability to divine their collective thought process.

When you're only allowed 18 candidates from a pool of several hundred, most are going to be left out, no? It's their game, and they can include/exclude whomever they want for any reason they want. Firaxis can't, and won't, add every country/ethnic-group that someone, somewhere, wants in the game.

And finally, I just don't understand why some people are so obsessed with inclusion/exclusion of certain countries. I feel that some people base the relative worth of their country on whether it appears in a silly game, or not -- which is weird. Or that, somehow, playing Germany (for example) is going to offer some deep historical insight on what it means to be German. In other words, other than a few cosmetic differences, and a handful of arbitrary traits, there's no fundamental difference between playing Germany, or Rome, or Isreal.

[SirSebastian]

snoopy369,

... even the Catholic mass is primarily pagan (although the format is half based on jewish services, nearly all of the symbolism and symbols, plus the more-important second half of the mass, are based on pagan artifacts - particularly the eating of the body and blood of christ).

Is it really necessary in a thread about whether or not a Jewish-based civilization should be in the game to find a way to take such a ridiculously feeble shot at Catholicism of all things? Not only did your post display a clear lack of knowledge about the connections between Christianity and Judaism, but the end of your post is off topic and uncalled for. Since you gave a fiction book (The Davinci Code) as suggested reading, I can easily counter with any recommendation, but I'll throw out: Many Religions, One Covenant: Israel, the Church, and the World by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by SirSebastian
snoopy369,


Is it really necessary in a thread about whether or not a Jewish-based civilization should be in the game to find a way to take such a ridiculously feeble shot at Catholicism of all things? Not only did your post display a clear lack of knowledge about the connections between Christianity and Judaism, but the end of your post is off topic and uncalled for. Since you gave a fiction book (The Davinci Code) as suggested reading, I can easily counter with any recommendation, but I'll throw out: Many Religions, One Covenant: Israel, the Church, and the World by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

I felt his post was unworthy of a reply. I have not read any book from our new Pope when he was a Cardinal. Should I buy this one?

[Sharule]

Jews have most certainly had an effect on western culture much greater than their numbers would suggest, but Jews are not Israel. Israel has no place on the civ roster.

If there was no Israel, there would be no Jews. Therefor no Tanakh(old testament) the best selling and most influential piece of literature in the western world, if not the entire world. The western religions would have never developed, and the world would be a lot different. Trying to seperate the people from their nation is rediculous. The Arabs did not flourish without Arabia.

This topic is getting rather hot. People are talking about religions in an impersonal manner. Im trying to state my point, yes I am Jewish, yes, I might be biased. But I am trying not to be. It is impossible to study christianity without studying the Jews. The New Testament was written by a Jew(Saul/Paul of Tsauris) and was about a Jew. 33% of the world claims to be christian(I wont argue that some of these people do not have strong convictions, but the fact that they claim to be religious is enough for me.) I do not see how you can say that Israel had no effect on the world when 33% of the world worships an Israelite(Isea, Jesus) another 16 million follow Judaism and another 21% follow Muhammads teachings, which worships and glorifies the Israeli God(Abliet in a different form).

[Dinner]

Firaxis should give the Jews their civ.

[smellymummy]

recent archeological digs might just prove that china invented the noodle. and they are also the third nation to go to space. if thats not reason enough for china, i don't know what is

now for israel, the fact that their culture has survived all this time is good enough for me to say they should be in. and so what if they got conquered, in civ, it's not about what happened, its what can happen at the hands of a player

anyway, someone will make a mod with israel

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Sharule


If there was no Israel --snip

Note that everything in your post happened after Israel and did not require it.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sharule


If there was no Israel, there would be no Jews.

Do you mean ancient kingdom of Israel or modern state of Israel ?


Because Judaism survived the Babylonian captivity and Jewish settlements persisted in Mesopotamia and the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid empires, even when there were no independent Jewish states in Palestine.

This is without even mentioning the Jewish Berber tribes, the Jewish Khazar khanate, the Jewish colonies in Egypt, India, China, Afghanistan, Africa- none of which were dependent upon an independent state of Israel or Judaean kingdom.

The New Testament was written by a Jew(Saul/Paul of Tsauris) and was about a Jew.

Actually, it was written by more than one person, at more than one time, and it isn't all about Jesus.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Die! Die bad thread die!

:: hits it with a stick::

Die! Go away! Shoo!

This has been a public service announcement for "Let's talk about CIV in the Civ4-General forum." Thank you.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Nikolai
I'd be all for a Jewish civ. No country/people has survived so much so long in the history of mankind, so I'd say they deserve a place in Civ.

Balderdash.

Other cultures (Indus/Chinese/African) far predate the Judaic peoples.

And on the subject, anything is in CIV4 is moddable,
So, we could have the 'banana' civ included by the public.

PS
This thread just screams 'political rant' at me.