Israel

[Sharule]

After watching CivIV for a few months, the only complaint that I have is that Israel isnt in the game. All the other religions have a civilization that represents their cultural development, except Judaism. I think that the cultural contributions that Israel has made throughout the years is substantial, even if early Judah and Israel were destroyed. It might be mentioned that Israel is one of the only nations to have been destroyed and then re-established over 1500 years later.
Maybe this is just bickering, but I do think it is time to add Israel as a civilation in the series. Its too late for the main game, but maybe in an expansion pack, or even a player mod (although it would have to be well done.)

[MarkG]

there's always the expansion pack

[tuckson]

Agreed.
I have been wondering too why this nation wasn't in the previous version(s) already. Especially since long lost nations like aztecs and incas do appear in the game.

Maybe a political-economic decision? (Fear that with Israël as part of the game it would be boycotted by the islamic world)?

If realism is one of the goals, Israël certainly should be part. With King David or king Solomon and golda Meïr as leaders or so. As great wonder The temple of solomon or even king Solomons mines.

As special unit the Mossad agent or so.

ideas enough

[nbarclay]

I can see a very good case for excluding Israel from previous versions of Civ because Israel's main influence on the world has been in relation to religion and religion was part of the game only in a very abstract and limited sense. But with religion playing a much larger role in Civ 4, the idea of including a civilization that was never all that big or militarily powerful but that's religious developments had an enormous impact on the world makes a whole lot more sense.

[MarkG]

perhaps (and i'm just imagining stuff right now) there is plan for an israel civ in the expansion pack with ultra powerfull missionary unit

[tuckson]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I can see a very good case for excluding Israel from previous versions of Civ because Israel's main influence on the world has been in relation to religion and religion was part of the game only in a very abstract and limited sense. But with religion playing a much larger role in Civ 4, the idea of including a civilization that was never all that big or militarily powerful but that's religious developments had an enormous impact on the world makes a whole lot more sense.

Well, not really. In the days before the nation was overrun by the babylonians, the Hebrew nation was one of the dominant nations in that part of the world. Historic kings like David and Solomon were widely known because of their strenght and wealth.

Also in our days, Israëls influence is not just religion related. Nealry the entire arabic world hates the country and wants it to be washed into the sea. The middle east areas are on the news daily because of the things happening and very often Israël is part of that.

True, It's had a great influence because of religion, but to say it's the only influence doen't do right to the nation and it's situation. And not to mention the fact that in the second half of the previous century, Israël developed one of the most effective armies in the world.


edit:
Because am i am very oftem surprised by the lack of knowledge people show related to the truth of the situation in the middle east, here's a link to an example. An article in wikipedia concerning the 1973 Yom-kippur war. The small country Israël is attacked by the joint forces of 4 different arab countries, after 2 days of being pushed back the recoverd and struck back. the only way a the attackers are saved for a smashing defeat is through intervention of the UN. Also have a look at the other articles concerning the israëlic wars, since this was not the only war where it went this way. Without pointing to bad and good gays, One cannot state that the jewish military forces have been of little importance, since history shows otherwise.


(And no, I'm not jewish and do not live in that part of the world).

[Nikolai]

I'd be all for a Jewish civ. No country/people has survived so much so long in the history of mankind, so I'd say they deserve a place in Civ.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by MarkG
perhaps (and i'm just imagining stuff right now) there is plan for an israel civ in the expansion pack with ultra powerfull missionary unit

Considering that Judaism is not a missionary religion, that would not be appropriate imo.

Either give them a slinger (replaces archer) or Merkava (sp?) (replaces tank).

[Martinus]

No country/people has survived so much so long in the history of mankind, so I'd say they deserve a place in Civ.

That's not true. The Chinese or Indian civilizations have existed much longer, and in the case of China as more or less continuous political entity. Both Egypt and Babylon were already prosperous and advanced civilizations when Israel emerged.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by tuckson

Well, not really. In the days before the nation was overrun by the babylonians, the Hebrew nation was one of the dominant nations in that part of the world. Historic kings like David and Solomon were widely known because of their strenght and wealth.

The golden age you refer to lasted less than a hundred years (if I recall correctly), after which the nation split in two. And even during that golden age, Israel's empire wasn't all that big.

Also in our days, Israëls influence is not just relgion related. Nealry the entire arabic world hates the country and wants it to be washed into the sea. The middle east areas are on the news daily because of the things happening and very often Israël is part of that.

What modern Israel has achieved is to survive and prosper in the face of a lot of neighbors that hate it. That is an achievement worthy of recognition, but it is not the scale of achievement that earns a civilization's way into the extremely limited number of slots that Civilization games have available.

True, It's had a great influence because of religion, but to say it's the only influence doen't do right to the nation and it's situation. (And no, I'm not jewish and do not live in that part of the world).

I'm not saying that religion is the only thing in Israel's history worthy of notice. But can you honestly say that you would consider Israel worthy of inclusion if it weren't for the religious aspect of its history?

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Martinus

That's not true. The Chinese or Indian civilizations have existed much longer, and in the case of China as more or less continuous political entity. Both Egypt and Babylon were already prosperous and advanced civilizations when Israel emerged.

That's not an answer to my comment. The Jews has survived much more than the Chinese or anyone else ever did, managing to keep their culture and religion throughout diasporas and centuries without a homeland.

[tuckson]

Originally posted by nbarclay


The golden age you refer to lasted less than a hundred years (if I recall correctly), after which the nation split in two. And even during that golden age, Israel's empire wasn't all that big.

True.
However, a true golden age wont be found with many civs. And about the size. How big was the japanese empire? (don't count the 4 years in WW2)

What modern Israel has achieved is to survive and prosper in the face of a lot of neighbors that hate it. That is an achievement worthy of recognition, but it is not the scale of achievement that earns a civilization's way into the extremely limited number of slots that Civilization games have available.

If this is not worthy, then tell me why a nation like Mali should be worthy enough?

I'm not saying that religion is the only thing in Israel's history worthy of notice. But can you honestly say that you would consider Israel worthy of inclusion if it weren't for the religious aspect of its history?

You miss the fact that religion only became less important the latter centuries. Many (if not most) of the activities and discoveries of the pasthave taken place because of religion. Middel east cultures depend highly on the islam. Middle age adventures often occured because of the need of the church to make gentiles into christians. Rome and Greece had highly developed mystique cults. Which often were reason for invention and expansion.

[Senethro]

I wouldn't mind Israel being one of the smaller Civs that get rotated in and out of the Civ roster but no way is it even close to being on the level of America/China/European countries/India etc. Also, if Israel gets in, theres an arguement for a Scottish civ

Edit: In medieval Japan the more potent Daimyos held wealth, armies and subjects that European kings would have been jealous of. Even in those days, Japan was very densely populated. With any luck, Civ4 will be the first game to demonstrate that territory isn't everything.

[LordShiva]

Not this discussion again. Please feel free to use the following as a template for future posts, replacing the appropriate placeholder letters:

I think nation X should be included as a civ. Also nation Y. They both did awesome things, like W and Z. X built the V, and Y has the U UU. Their leaders can be S and T.

[GeoModder]