Volunteers for a research team

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

I agree about the playing civ3 your own way. i just want a mod that is 75-90% close then I can finish my personal touches. I'll see if I can post the bic on a aol web page in a little while in case others want to see. I've only been working on it since this weekend so only the ancient era is close to being what I'd like. just started the medieval era last night so its way outta whack still. Some little things i've done are to increase settlers to 3 pop and made them wheeled to slow down AI spawl. I think AI spawl is the biggest factor in a game that moves way to fast.

I agree that adding more just for the sake of more isnt good. I look for things that fill a percieved void. Some of the buildings I've been looking to add are: shrine (culture only), mill, splitting harbor and airport into component buildings (seperate extra resource / veteran functions), shopping mall, train depot lowers corruption, radio station for culture, public schools for science, and sewers to allow larger cities (i already increased from 6/12 to 8/16, capitols get autmatic aquaduct and hospital). Some wonders I'm considering: olympics (double colosseum), polio vaccine (renamed cure for cancer), code of hammurabi (free courts), Refrigeration (renamed longevity), GPS (+1 sea movement), internet (modern great library), radio network (free radio stations), treasury bonds (5% interest). i also made some wonders dependant on buildings such as GL requires libraries, GW requires walls.

I've already started modifying costs. i started with the assumption that all foot units consist of 500 people, and mounted units are 100. That way I can try to calculate comparative costs. I also modified bonus HP as follows: all UU get +1, non-gunpowder ranged +1, gunpowder +2, vehicle armor +1, modern vehicle armor +2. All bonuses are accumulative. One game I had over 600 units simply because I had nothing else to build so I realized that costs were way to cheap. Once I got MA, the game was over by conquest in 4 turns against 12 large civs.

One of the first decisions needs to be on what type of map will we balance it on. If you balance on a huge map, the smaller mapped games may drag alot. Vice versa if we balance on a small map.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

I hope this works, here is my URL for my bic. members.aol.com/civ3alphamod, and pick the alphamodbeta file.

[Canadian_Patriot]

Your Code of Hammurabi suggestion is EXCELLENT as an Ancient Wonder. When would it expire?

And perhaps, in the Industrial Age onwards, it could be replaced by a Supreme Court small wonder?

Matt

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

With the except of great library -> internet, i dont usually like wonders that replace others. I figure the Code laid the groundwork for all future laws, therefore it wouldnt expire otherwise you'd be forced to build courts late in the game. To me, wonders are either unique, or named after the first country to do it. I had actually considered the supreme court but ruled against it due to its lack of uniqueness. I also considered calling it Justinian Law.

Some wonders i think also need to be modified. I'm unaware of any real life correlation between the pyramids and granaries. It should be a cultural or happiness wonder.

[Canadian_Patriot]

I suggest the Supreme Court minor wonder as a way for other civs to get the same bonus late in the game, but without the culture.

Matt

[Rhuarc]

Harlan, the debate I am talking about has been going on between a couple of us who have been working on the mod, not here in the forums. And it hasn't really been a debate, more me trying to figure out where things should go historically!

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

I didnt think you can use small wonders in that way. Better to design the supreme court as another FP.

[Bane Star]

Originally posted by Harlan
Bane Star,
That's cool that you're making a new modpack with so many new graphics. I hope though your brother focuses first on making unit graphics for units not already in the game. Why even make duplicates of ones that already exist? Also, over at civfanatics, some people are working on some really good graphics relating to the Alexander the Great era so you might want to check for such stuff to avoid duplication of effort.

[COLOR=sea-green]Oh dont worry If anyone has allready got units made, The best part I loved about Civ2 was the Supreme variety of graphics that others had made, so that I could choose the units I wanted when making a scenario. If I make up stuff that is allready done, it'll just be someone elses 'choice' later on which is more to thier tastes (oh and In 3D max, we have to make complete body shapes/ clothing at least once as a 'starting point' so making duplicates of allready existing troops will happen even if we dont want to. [/COLOR]

[Harlan]

I got the download, Alpha Wolf. However, its hard for me to understand tech tree ideas without an actual tech tree showing lines to and fro. Do you have, or could you make, something like that?

I'd also like to hear feedback on some ideas mentioned earlier, such as how to make Walls more important, and changing the food eat citizen eats from 2 to 3.

I'd say balance on a regular sized map. The ability to change tech rates by map size should do wonders for not having dragging on other sizes, if adjusted properly.

Settler sprawl: I think this is much improved since the patch, though still a problem. Wheeled is good. Eating 3 pop may be too much if the food citizens eat is boosted. Seems like a thing to playtest.

Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)

Mill: maybe, if effects aren't too unbalancing (when Factories are available, I stop whatever else I'm doing and produce as many Factories as fast as I can. I'd probably do the same with Mill. This could give me a big production lead over the AI civs. Maybe 25% for cities with rivers only?

splitting harbor and airport into component buildings (seperate extra resource / veteran functions): I agree 100%. Also, airport and harbor should be made more useful so that every city that can build one would want to (esp. if half of their previous value is stripped away).

shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages

train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?

radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings

public schools for science - why?

sewers to allow larger cities - what about Hospital doing this?

capitols get autmatic aquaduct and hospital - interesting idea - I like it

I'll get back on the wonders. I haven't thought about specifics here yet.

Rhuarc,
Why don't you post your tech tree as it stands now, so people can have a look at it?

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by Harlan
I got the download, Alpha Wolf. However, its hard for me to understand tech tree ideas without an actual tech tree showing lines to and fro. Do you have, or could you make, something like that?

I've been working on that but the lines between the techs seem to be hard coded so its a giant mess right now . I hope to have that done this weekend.

I'd also like to hear feedback on some ideas mentioned earlier, such as how to make Walls more important, and changing the food eat citizen eats from 2 to 3.

I'm not sure how to increase the usefulness of the walls unfortunately.

I'd say balance on a regular sized map. The ability to change tech rates by map size should do wonders for not having dragging on other sizes, if adjusted properly.

OK.

Settler sprawl: I think this is much improved since the patch, though still a problem. Wheeled is good. Eating 3 pop may be too much if the food citizens eat is boosted. Seems like a thing to playtest.

I once long ago tried the 3 food per pop, but since very few tiles can ever produce 3 food, pop stagnants quickly around 3 or 4. Might be possible if we jack up the food rates on resources but that leaves civs with minimal resources at a huge disadvantage. Also, dont forget that the AIs tend to build their capitols where they start so many AI capitols will never grow unless they are surrounded by grassland (dont forget the depotism food penalty).

Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)

I agree on principle. Gameplay reasons are: 1) something to build besides military (I think that theres too many early wars because the AI runs out of buildings to build). 2) To increase overall culture. i see the culture rings can be manipulated on the general tab in the editor so that may be a preferred way to increase the rings. I just havent played with that yet.

Mill: maybe, if effects aren't too unbalancing (when Factories are available, I stop whatever else I'm doing and produce as many Factories as fast as I can. I'd probably do the same with Mill. This could give me a big production lead over the AI civs. Maybe 25% for cities with rivers only?

Definitely confined to rivers, and very very expensive because the only flag available gives a 50% increase. i wish 10% and 25% flags were available.

splitting harbor and airport into component buildings (seperate extra resource / veteran functions): I agree 100%. Also, airport and harbor should be made more useful so that every city that can build one would want to (esp. if half of their previous value is stripped away).

Any ideas how to make them more valuable? I was thinking that harbor -> port(+1 food, i wish +1 gold) & naval station(veteran), same for airport(airbase). I dont see any other flags that would be practical.

shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages

they are luxury increasers. i rarely ever look at the city views had hadnt noticed that.

train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?

I'd move police stations earlier. Rome I thought had praectors(sp?) that were the equivalent of police stations.

radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings

You need radio stations to build the radio network.

public schools for science - why?

Raise the cost of later techs, so that a new science building is necessary. Again something else to build besides military. A common theme is that too many military units are built for lack of anything else to build.

sewers to allow larger cities - what about Hospital doing this?

yep, these are renamed hospitals unless i can figure out a real seperate reason for a hospital.

capitols get autmatic aquaduct and hospital - interesting idea - I like it

Thanks. Gave me my Romes

[Harlan]

Hi,
I'll respond to other stuff later, but a couple of quick points. First, in the Civ Editor, I noticed that Factory for instance is set a Production = 2, and that gives a 50% boost. So I assume that one could set Production = 1 for a 25% boost, no?

Second, here is the terrain chart from the Double Your Pleasure mod, which uses a citizen eats 3 system:

Type F/S/C I/M/R
------------------------------
Desert 0/1/1 - 1/1/1
Plains 2/2/1 - 1/1/1
Grassland 3/0/1 - 2/0/1
Tundra 0/0/0 - 0/2/1
Floodplains 4/0/0 - 2/0/1
Hills 1/2/1 - 1/2/1
Mountains 0/3/1 - 0/2/1
Forest 1/2/1 - 0/1/2
Jungle 2/1/1 - 0/2/1
Coast 3/0/1 - 0/0/0
Sea 2/1/1 - 0/0/0
Ocean 0/0/0 - 0/0/0

Removed Mining from Grasslands
Upped the food production for Grassland, Plains, and Hills
Upped the shield production of forest and mountains
Increased commerce production of all terrain
Increased Irrigation bonus for Grassland, Plains, Hills, Desert, and Flood Plains to compensate for the additional food consumption
Can mine forests (think lumber mill)
Tundra and desert produce no food


These would be pretty close to the settings I'd want (I'm not sure about mining forests, esp. as that could be a backdoor to mined grassland). Food from bonus resources would also be boosted, remember, and there's the free center tile every city gets. The Despotism rule is any tile producing more than 2 produces one less, so an irrigated grassland tile in a Despotism would be adding +1 food.

I think with these changes most cities would not stop at 3 or 4, but also most would not make it to huge levels early (unless in very fertile spots). The AI may actually fare pretty well under this system, since they start irrigating from the get-go, while the smart human player doesn't since there's no need till the government changes. Now all those AI irrigations would actually be producing something.

[Harlan]

quote:
I've been working on that but the lines between the techs seem to be hard coded so its a giant mess right now . I hope to have that done this weekend.

There's are files you can edit to change those lines. But maybe you have some notes or drawings or something else to pass on, or is it all in your head?

quote:
Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)
I agree on principle. Gameplay reasons are: 1) something to build besides military (I think that theres too many early wars because the AI runs out of buildings to build). 2) To increase overall culture. i see the culture rings can be manipulated on the general tab in the editor so that may be a preferred way to increase the rings. I just havent played with that yet.

I didn't realize there was a lack of things to build problem. I actually haven't played Civ3 that much. I've only really started playing since the patch came out since the game seemed in beta mode previously, and since then I've never ever made it to Flight once.

Is that something other people have noticed? Just the same, I think it would be better to do point 2 and increase costs of things already in the game to solve the not enough stuff to build problem. Only add things that are really needed, not just as filler cos there isn't enough stuff to build.

quote:
Definitely confined to rivers, and very very expensive because the only flag available gives a 50% increase. i wish 10% and 25% flags were available.

See my point above- I think 25% flags are available, but only for production.

quote:
Any ideas how to make them more valuable? I was thinking that harbor -> port(+1 food, i wish +1 gold) & naval station(veteran), same for airport(airbase). I dont see any other flags that would be practical.

For Harbor I'd say add +50% trade (and raise its cost some). A bit extreme I know, but consider that 90% of humanity lives within 100 miles of the coast. Given that water squares give lots of trade, this would tend to make coastal cities trade powerhouses, and in a way that the AI couldn't fail to pick up on. I think it would be a good step towards more differentiation betwen cities so you tend to have trade or production but not always both, which would make things more interesting.

Names - Harbor seems fine to me, and I prefer Naval Base to Naval Station.

Airport I'd have to think about.

quote:
shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages
they are luxury increasers. i rarely ever look at the city views had hadnt noticed that.

Howabout this for Airport instead?

quote:
train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?
I'd move police stations earlier. Rome I thought had praectors(sp?) that were the equivalent of police stations.

I'd rather not deal with corruption this way - having each city build something to reduce it, when its a catch 22, cos those cities are too corrupt to build anything. Better to deal with it centrally. Code of Hammuradi concept - thumbs up. Supreme Court small wonder - thumbs up, too bad it doesn't work! At least one additional Forbidden City type small wonder. Another wonder that builds a Police Station in every city. Maybe throw the free Courthouses function onto a number of later wonders as a bonus, so that eventually everyone who gets a wonder doesn't ever need to build a Courthouse? More along these lines than another building, I say.

quote:
radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings
You need radio stations to build the radio network.

What's the radio network?

quote:
public schools for science - why?
Raise the cost of later techs, so that a new science building is necessary. Again something else to build besides military. A common theme is that too many military units are built for lack of anything else to build.

I can see this, but also generally boost the cost of building things, esp. as the game goes on. When is the not enough things to build problem most acute?

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Now that makes sense to me if you increase the food on each tile. I think flood plains needs a clay resource and a shields resource for grasslands if you cant mine them (there are lots of quarries in grasslands). I'd narrowly vote against mining forests as long as there is a lumber resource. I dont see getting 2 food from a jungle (its a shame the game treats the jungles as a swamp replacement). I'd lean more towards 1/3/0, 0/0/1. When I get home tonight, I'll look at a few of my games and see how those cities would fare. My gut instinct is that it wont make a large diference except in some silly cases where huge game cities exist where no real city could grow (a good thing). Gut says that implementing this AND settlers=3 pop could be supported. I see cities growing faster, because the first few tiles are still going to be your best food producers, and it wont slow down the AI spawl. A city with only 2 irrigated grasslands will be able to spit out a settler every 30 turns (w/o the game in front of me, this is out of memory so i may be a little off). City=2/1/x, grasslands=5/0/x (assuming no bonus shields on either grassland), total=12/1/x, food eaten 6, which means a city grows every 3.33333 turns (20 per pop growth). Even taking off 3 pop for a settler, this city will grow fast until it gets to less productive tiles. As a result, I'd lean towards grasslands as 3/0/1, 1/0/1. I dont see any other glaring faults except the 1 shield out of sea. This IMO s/b 0.

BTW, as the game currently stands + settler=3, greatly slows done early AI expansion. By the early AD tho, the AI settler machine is usually running full blast.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by Harlan
I've been working on that but the lines between the techs seem to be hard coded so its a giant mess right now . I hope to have that done this weekend.

There's are files you can edit to change those lines. But maybe you have some notes or drawings or something else to pass on, or is it all in your head?

its on a now totally unreadable piece of paper. I am using paintbrush to move things around, thats why its taking so long. I dont have an graphics software

Shrine: why? (I'm generally against culture only buildings though culture for some things should be boosted to make more than 4 ringed cities possible)
I agree on principle. Gameplay reasons are: 1) something to build besides military (I think that theres too many early wars because the AI runs out of buildings to build). 2) To increase overall culture. i see the culture rings can be manipulated on the general tab in the editor so that may be a preferred way to increase the rings. I just havent played with that yet.

I didn't realize there was a lack of things to build problem. I actually haven't played Civ3 that much. I've only really started playing since the patch came out since the game seemed in beta mode previously, and since then I've never ever made it to Flight once.

Is that something other people have noticed? Just the same, I think it would be better to do point 2 and increase costs of things already in the game to solve the not enough stuff to build problem. Only add things that are really needed, not just as filler cos there isn't enough stuff to build.

It seems like my core cities early in the game get converted to wealth alot since the AI is substantially better at building wonders in 1.21. #2 is actually my preferred option also, but its more time consuming to test out.

Definitely confined to rivers, and very very expensive because the only flag available gives a 50% increase. i wish 10% and 25% flags were available.

See my point above- I think 25% flags are available, but only for production.

DOHHHHHHHHH, i knew that already but had forgotten about it.

Any ideas how to make them more valuable? I was thinking that harbor -> port(+1 food, i wish +1 gold) & naval station(veteran), same for airport(airbase). I dont see any other flags that would be practical.

For Harbor I'd say add +50% trade (and raise its cost some). A bit extreme I know, but consider that 90% of humanity lives within 100 miles of the coast. Given that water squares give lots of trade, this would tend to make coastal cities trade powerhouses, and in a way that the AI couldn't fail to pick up on. I think it would be a good step towards more differentiation betwen cities so you tend to have trade or production but not always both, which would make things more interesting.

Names - Harbor seems fine to me, and I prefer Naval Base to Naval Station.

Airport I'd have to think about.

DOHHHHHHH, someone was talking about tv stations when I wrote naval station. It should be naval base and air base.

shopping mall - does what? Note the graphic for Marketplace turns into a shopping mall in later ages
they are luxury increasers. i rarely ever look at the city views had hadnt noticed that.

Howabout this for Airport instead?

I was thinking it already did. This was just a real world case where everyone wants that big shopping mall nearby. Personally as a guy, i can do without it

train depot lowers corruption - what about Police Station at roughly the same time I imagine?
I'd move police stations earlier. Rome I thought had praectors(sp?) that were the equivalent of police stations.

I'd rather not deal with corruption this way - having each city build something to reduce it, when its a catch 22, cos those cities are too corrupt to build anything. Better to deal with it centrally. Code of Hammuradi concept - thumbs up. Supreme Court small wonder - thumbs up, too bad it doesn't work! At least one additional Forbidden City type small wonder. Another wonder that builds a Police Station in every city. Maybe throw the free Courthouses function onto a number of later wonders as a bonus, so that eventually everyone who gets a wonder doesn't ever need to build a Courthouse? More along these lines than another building, I say.

radio station for culture - see above about culture buildings
You need radio stations to build the radio network.

What's the radio network?

The radio network is my additional FP wonder. 4 or 5 radio stations are needed to build it. I've liked the concept of building requirements for a wonder: libraries for the GL, walls for the GW. i worry about giving the same benefit to multiple wonders as the human is smart enough to go for them all just to deprave the AI of them.

In reality, train stations created many a boom town, and many more towns to turn into dust when they didnt get one. Given game options, IMO, corruption came the closest to that, altho I'm open to other suggestions. Also because I live near Chicago, there's a noticeable prosperity between those burbs with a train station and those w/o.

public schools for science - why?
Raise the cost of later techs, so that a new science building is necessary. Again something else to build besides military. A common theme is that too many military units are built for lack of anything else to build.

I can see this, but also generally boost the cost of building things, esp. as the game goes on. When is the not enough things to build problem most acute?

Definitely the later ages need to be more expensive. i'd already started on the units but havent gotten to any buildings yet.

On a side note, i think we need to split govs into older versions and newer versions to reflect some real life issues. i'm sure a modern soldier expects much better supplies than a civil war soldier. So the older version of democracy require unit main of 1 but the newer version require 2/unit. To compensate, the newer democracy is more organized and efficient (ok, stop laughing) so gold and production bonses are better, etc.

[Harlan]

Whoa - even more posting! I'm at work and shouldn't be doing this!

quote:
I've already started modifying costs. i started with the assumption that all foot units consist of 500 people, and mounted units are 100. That way I can try to calculate comparative costs. I also modified bonus HP as follows: all UU get +1, non-gunpowder ranged +1, gunpowder +2, vehicle armor +1, modern vehicle armor +2. All bonuses are accumulative. One game I had over 600 units simply because I had nothing else to build so I realized that costs were way to cheap. Once I got MA, the game was over by conquest in 4 turns against 12 large civs.

I'd say be more mellow on the hit points, if only cos there is a graphical limit on hit points, beyond which the hit point bar is too high (I once played a mod where all hit points were doubled and this was a problem for that). Howabout 3 different eras, first one starting at gunpowder, and +1 for each era? Much easier for people to understand. +1 for UU, I'm kind of split on that idea. Has it been playtested?

Also,
I notice AW that you have Socialism and City Alliance as new government types. I'm not so big on those, esp. Socialism (since it seems more like a compromise thing than a thing on its own). City Alliance would be okay if you mean City State, and plan that to be an early Republic type, with Republic coming much later (Renaissance or so).

What do you think about my Theocracy, Fascism and Empire? Oops - don't think I mentioned the last one before. That would be like an early Communism in function (Communal) allowing large empires but bad science, kind of a Despotism plus. I also think there should be more max science limits on gvmt types, to help slow science progress.

Here, by the way, are some thoughts I wrote up the other day on two new strategic resources. There would be a bunch of new Bonus resources too, along the lines of the resource graphics I've been making.


Copper (available with Bronze Working)
allows:

Colossus
Hoplite
Archer
Bowman
Cannon (plus Iron)
Ship of the Line
All air units (perhaps)
All modern ships (perhaps)
Statue of Liberty (a new Democracy-only wonder)

Timber (available at start)
allows:

Catapult
Trebuchet
Caravel
Frigate
Galleon
Man O' War
Ship of the Line
Magellan’s Voyage

I'm also toying with the idea of adding a Marble strategic resource, which would most facilitate the building of wonders and big buildings like Bank. Is that a good idea?