Volunteers for a research team

[Canadian_Patriot]

I also feel that an AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System) unit would be good. I'm looking over graphics that could prove useful for that...I don't suppose you have any idea how to increase radar range?

As for suggestions, I'd say this would be my naval suggestions

Industrial -> Modern

Dreadnought -> None
Battleship -> None
Cruiser - > AEGIS Cruiser
Destroyer -> AEGIS Destroyer
Carrier -> Nuclear Carrier
Sub -> Attack sub
None -> Boomer (Missile Sub)
None -> Missile Frigate

Modern and Industrial each have six ships in this system. I'm hoping very, very much that a way can be found to give a Frigate a helicopter that can see subs and do recon. That would make the modern frigate a ASW asset, as it should be, while the destroyer bombards ships and shore positions. Here's hoping.

As for air units...

Industrial -> Modern

Fighter -> Jet fighter/Stealth Fighter
Bomber -> Jet bomber/ Stealth Bomber*
Recon Aircraft/Artillery Spotter (Biplane) -> AWACS
Paratrooper -> Transport Helicopter

Maybe we could also have a Rocket -> Cruise Missile chain?

* I think that jet bombers should be the dominant late game bomber, which are complimented by smaller numbers of stealth bombers, due to the relative costs of both. I mean, the USAF once had hundreds and hundreds of B-52s, and even more B-47s, but has under two two dozen B-2s, IIRC.

If I really wanted to be picky, I could also suggest two different upgrades from the recon plane. A cheaper, shorter ranged one would be an E-2 Hawkeye, a propeller driven plane used for scouting and airborne control off of aircraft carrier decks, and the larger E-3 Sentry, which is a four-engined jet (Modifed 707, I think) with a roto-dome attached, that has greater capabilities, but is land based.

I'm still looking over ground units.

Comments are EAGERLY awaited.

Matt

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Oh sure, sneak up on me while I'm eating....

I'll only reply to those that we arent in argreement about.

Originally posted by Harlan
Numerous other mods have government specific wonders, and I don't know of any problems. If you change governments, apparently the effects of the wonder still last. The AI Settler thing doesn't sound good. Howabout trying increasing the shield cost of Settlers, and see if the AI is smarter about that? That could have the same slow down effect.

I thought about increasing cost (cant remember if I slightly increased it or not). It usually only affected the first settler built by a city. it appears to me that a settler is hardcoded for each AI city.

Refrigeration (renamed longevity)

Sounds more like an advance, but I did the rename and move here as well

I thought of calling it an advance then coming up with a ganary type building and have ganaries obsolete with industrialization.

Given the limited flags available, I don't like the idea. Because just when food production should be surging, all your granaries disappear and your growth actually goes down. Rebuild them, and you're only back where you started. CTP had an improvement flag that allowed you to boost food growth by 10 or 20%, so there was a modern Silo building. But lacking that flag, no need for this (also the Granary graphic changes to a Silo looking thing over time).

OK, you convinced me. Seems like refrigeration was so important that I wish there was some way to incorporate it but I cant think of anything.

I partially disagree on this one. GPS allows exact positioning which decreases course corrections whch allows you to get there faster (thus traveling farther). If I had satellites up, there's nothing to say i MUST allow others to use it. I'm greedy...mine mine mine

Its one of those things where you can't stop others from using it, just like anyone with a radio can pick up radio stations. No matter how greedy you are! So I still disagree that the makers of a GPS system have their ships go faster.

I was under the misconception that GPS was a encypted signal. You win.

radio network (free radio stations)
I picked radio because we already have that advance, and it had such a unifying effect its its early days, plus its range is greater than tv. Notice that in most coups, radio stations are targeted very quickly. Also, i'd double their effect, not free stations, since it takes x number of them before you get a network.

I still prefer Hollywood. Come on - the stars, the action, the glamour! Radio can't compete. True, radio had its moment, but Hollywood was huge then, and is still huge now. Also, a very specific thing, as opposed to "radio network", which seems to me nothing more than a bunch of radio stations.

Altho I understand everyone's infatuation with Hollywood, I'm not of the mindset that hollywood has crossed the line between being entertaining and being a drain on society. Just witness any of the "historical" movies the last 20 years. Maybe Hollywood could have a negative science impact

treasury bonds (5% interest)
Its a late industrial age wonder. I couldnt think of a good name. i had toyed with Commodities Exchange (there's those chicago roots again)

I still don't see the point - you already have another wonder doing this, isn't that enough?

Yep, but i hate that 50 gold limit...grrrrrrrrrrrr

Great Wall (change function to Walls in every city?)
X Walls, city must have Walls
Despotism only

I'd leave its benfits as are. I wouldnt attach a gov-type to a physical wonder. The wall once built is there regardless of gov type.

The problem is, is Walls aren't being built, then what's the point of doubling them? If we can solve the problem of getting more Walls built, then keep current function, if not, then change it.

As I mentioned before, the effects of a wonder stay even when you change gvmts. Clearly only a Despotic type gvmt could mobilize the workforce to build the Great Wall. Apparently hundreds of thousands died during the construction.

Someone always beats me to GW so I know they are building walls. Dont foget the benefit against the barbarians. I see your point about the gov.

Hoover Dam
coastal, X Hydro Plants ?

I'd leave exactly as it currently is. Unless you want to change it to the TVA (tennessee valley authority). The dam MUST be a river wonder not coastal. In the case of Hoover, its a lone dam supplying power for a large region.

Whoa - I just realized something through this typo. The river flag is an improvement flag, which means improvement flags work for all great and small wonders! I didn't really realize that. That could lead to some cool stuff.

Perhaps X Factories is a better requirement than X Hydro Plants (plus river). I don't want this very powerful wonder to be easy to make.

Manhattan Project
Uranium, city must have Factory

i would say barracks and universty being that the University of Chicago did alot of the initial work as i understand it.

Okay. I was trying to get at the fact that one needs a large industrial base to even try to make the Manhattan Project, so maybe keep Factory prereq as well, or X Factories in civ.

But this was more a research project than a production project so I'd still vote for X Universities.

Shakespeare’s Theater (boost usefulness)
Monarchy only, X Colliseums, city must have Colliseum

i'd favor adding a theatre building and using that instead of colosseums. Affects 8 citizins is pretty good benefit already. Only requirement would be city has a theatre.

I can see the appeal of a Theater Building, but what would it do? I'm against culture only things, as mentioned before.

Theatres are happiness buildings and some culture.

Smith’s Trading Company
X Banks, city must have Bank
Monarchy only

Disagree on this being gov dependent. I'd love to make it civ attribute dependent (commercial only).

Unfortunately we can't make these attribute dependent, which really sucks. Some of these government assignments are kind of arbitrary just to have a number of unique ones for each gvmt type. I drop this requirement if you like. Part of the thinking was to prevent Empire or Theocracy gvmts from being able to build this. We can't have more than one gvmt requirement, or I would make it Republic or Monarchy. Maybe make a Republic equivalent?

Yes, lets add a republic version, too.

United Nations
Democracy only

what about civs that supposedly shun democracy?

They wouldn't build this. This definitely needs a civ limit - would you trust a United Nations built in a Fascist country?

Personally i wouldnt, but what if have the civs are communist or fascist? I've seen games were they were all communist.

Moon Landing (renamed Apollo Program)
Aluminum, 4 Research Labs, city must have Research Lab

awww, give the USA credit. We are still the only ones to walk on the moon.

If you think there's nothing strange in have 5 or more Apollo Programs, then fine. I guess the God Apollo is just really popular!

Good point. But moon landing is too specific. Lets call it Space Colonization. After all, the international space station is advancing space science but as far as I know, there's no thought of any more moon landings.

[Canadian_Patriot]

I think we need to agree on what the Manhatten Project was. First of all, it was getting all of the brains together at the University of Chicago, I think, to figure out if an atomic weapon was even feasible. Once they'd decided that it could be done, and discovered how to do it, they all moved out to the Nevada desert to actually get the thing done.

I can see the argument behind needing a university and needing a factory, but I say university is more important.

Matt

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Harlan

Royal Foundry
requires: Monarchy, Copper and Iron in city radius
effect: +50 production in city

good idea, but way way too powerful. when its available, most cities are lucky to have 10 shields. adding 50 shields to a ancient city would create a monster production center that would unbalance the game.

OHHHHHHHH, 50%!!!! I was thinking 50 shields.

A couple of notes. First, I haven't included tech prereqs for any of these, since the tech tree is in flux. Maybe you want to go through all the wonders and suggest which techs they'd belong to. This could have a tech making it come later. Second, I also haven't included when wonders expire, for similar reasons. But this is one I definitely would want to expire, or else it would get really huge once Factories and such came along. So a productive city yes, but only for a limited time. The Iron Works is 100% boost and isn't destabilizing, and Mills would give a 25% boost, so I don't think a 50% boost is that big. Esp. since you have no control over what city has both Copper and Iron, if any - it could be a marginal city.

Yeah, once we nail down the wonders and units and buildings we can backtrack to see what advances are needed.

National Mint
requires: Copper, city must have Marketplace
effect: +3 happiness, good culture amount

i'd think bank would be a better requirement than market.

I'm thinking this would be a much earlier thing, maybe even Currency as prereq. After all, governments had Mints making coins as far back as there were coins.

Angkor Wat
requires: Theocracy, Spices
effect: +50 production in city, +1 happiness in continent

i'd lose the production boost, i dont see the connection.

Connection: see the comments about Hydraulic Despotism, and how these huge monuments actually helped the economy. Which reminds me - this should be another river only.

Cluny Abbey
requires: Theocracy, Cathedral in city
effect: free Monastery in every city, Monastery gives +25% production (Monastery cannot be built otherwise)

neutral on this one

Do you know much about the Cluny Abbey? Its a bit obscure since it was destroyed and thus isn't a tourist attraction and all that. But in the Middle Ages the Cluny Abbey was the largest church in the world, bigger than the Vatican. It was the headquarters of the Benedictine Monks, who established a network of Monasteries that became very effective economically. So much so, they grew so wealthy and powerful that there was eventually a big backlash.

I looked through history for an example like this, cos I'm thinking the Theocracy gvmt is going to be great for happiness, but very lousy for science, not great for production either. So this could modify those negatives a bit. Similar thinking of Das Kapital and Five Year Plan and Communism (kind of sucky gvmt gets good if you get the wonders that goes with it).

Note that this would expire before Industrialization, or else it would be too powerful (esp. if this and the Communist wonders were operating simultaneously).

I admit i'd never heard of it and hadnt had time to research it. Sounds reasonable to me.

Code of Hammurabi
requires: Empire, Courthouse in city
effect: free Courthouse in every city on continent

This code was the basis of most civs, so I'd not make it gov specific.

Yeah, but you need an absolute ruler to force everyone into obeying something like this, initially.

Regardless of gov type, they all have that certain figure who ultimately has this kind of power.

Wild Goose Pagoda
requires: Empire, Silk, 6 Marketplaces
effect:+2 free advances

never heard of it

This is a pretty obscure thing. Its a building in Xian, China. Xian was the Chinese end of the Silk Road, and I went for this over having a Silk Road wonder, since its just a road. I believe it was the 600s AD, a Chinese Buddhist priest went down the Silk Road to gather knowledge about Buddhism. He ended up staying several decades in India, and came back to China with literally tons of books, which boosted knowledge not only of Buddhism, but also science and the outside world generally. The Emperor was so happy about this he built the Wild Goose Pagoda to house all the stuff the priest brought back, and it became a very important Buddhist shine (and still is).

So part of the thinking is to have something Silk/ Silk Road related (I love those resource requirements), and also trying to have more than just Europe/ US stuff.

Grand Canal
requires: Empire, coastal
effect: free Granaries in every city on continent

not sure of the correlation between a canal and free granaries

The Grand Canal was built (also around 600 AD I think, but it was rebuilt several times) to secure China's food supply. Basically, the south of China had all the food, and the capital (Peking) and other big towns up north suffered from periodic famines. So the canal supported a steady stream of ships carrying food for those towns. About as good a free granaries wonder example in real life as one could hope for, I think.

OHHHHHH. I was thinking it was associated with Venice. My bad.

Internet
requires: Democracy, 6 Public Schools
effect: free advances known by 2 other civs

dont tell china that they cant have the internet (they are #2 in the number of real life users)

My thinking here wasn't that only Democracies could have the Internet, but that only a Democracy could start such a thing. Once its out there, such a thing is impossible to stop (a number of gvmts, including China initially, tried), but a repressive gvmt wouldn't ever approve of the research to invent it.

But, thinking about this some more, I realized you can't have the Internet as a Great Wonder that only one civ benefits from. It really needs to be a Small Wonder, don't you think? Maybe Internet as small wonder (I can't think of a function as I'm not at home, but something science related) , and then Silicon Valley as a Great Wonder giving trade requiring the Internet as a prereq. WHat do you think?

Great idea for this to be a small wonder but In the past, I've had trouble getting improvement flags to work on small wonders (back in 1.17 days). Definitely like the Silicon Valley idea.

Supreme Court
requires: Democracy, 6 Police Stations
effect: Police Station in every city

How about this being MI6, or CIA, KGB, or FBI?

There already are so many wonders like that, from Intelligence Agency to Secret Service to Pentagon. It just gets confusing. Also, this is also a duplicate of the Secret Service wonder for Fascism, so I thought naming it Supreme Court could symbolically show the difference between those two types.

I understand your thinking, but it needs a different name. i see police and courts as seperate functions. Maybe i watch too many cop shows that show courts against the cops. LOL

Das Kapital
requires: Communism, Mill in city
effect: Mill in every city

correlation?

I was thinking this would be a good wonder for a civ that has fallen back on production (rapid industrialization being a key Communist goal). So I initially thought a Factory in every city, but decided that was too powerful. Mill is only half that, and this would be a cool thing in that it could put Mills in towns that otherwise wouldn't have them (no river), so in theory the Communist gov. could leap ahead in production.

A goal yes, but I dont think they ever succeeded in it. Maybe this would be a better 5-year plan.

Krupp Works
requires: Fascism, Coal, Iron, Oil, Factory in city
effect: Barracks in every city

As i understood it, krupp was an industrial complex.

Yes, and we can have it boost production in the city is it built in some, too. But it was essentialy a military industrial complex (the Krupps got started centuries earlier as artillery manufacturers), and the industrial heart of Hitler's war machine. The superior weaponry they made gave Germany's new soldiers a leg up. The best fit I could think of for a Barracks - Fascist connection.

Whether it was military or not, it was stil industrial in nature. Sounds like a factory for every continental city benefit would be more realistic.

Nuremberg Rallies
requires: Fascism
effect: +2 happiness in every city on continent

: rallies dont have lasting effects for millenias

If you assume this wonder couldn't be made till 1900s and the game ends in 2000, then you don't worry about millenias. In fact, we may want to boost some of the 1900s wonders for that reason (short duration).

OOOPS, i meant centuries. This one still bothers me. I understand the significance of the rallies for a short time but like any large outing the power behind it fades quickly as people get interested in other things. If we keep it, make it cheap, and obsolete after only a few advances later.

Thanks for all the specific comments. However, I would also like to hear some "big picture" comments. For instance, are this many new wonders too many? How many is too many? What do you think generally of the "more wonders but tough requirements to build them" concept? Do you want the City State gvmt in the game or not?

I'm less worried about quantity than I am about logical selections and play balancing. It's hard more me to see whether this will be balanced or not until we've played a few games. That said, we have to make sure that there are no key wonders that would give such a boost that that civ would have an unfair advantage for future wonders. I've liked that in 1.21, wonders are much more distributed among all the civs.

What about the religious type civ switching without anarchy problem? I think having more wonders expire could help (so benefits don't multiply, for instance seeking out every production wonder and becoming a production monster), but it still would be a powerful feature.

from what I've seen so far, I doubt anyone will get far enough ahead that switching will allow them to stockpile the wonders.

I say we quickly resolve which wonders to include, and also which improvements and units, and have a rough idea what they do. We can hone and playtest later. But have that stuff first, and then when you make the tech tree you can factor all this in, in determining which techs to include and their relationships.

Next post, I'll work on getting the quote thing down .

[Harlan]

Matt,
Even as I write this, I have a book in my lap called The Evolution of Weapons and Warfare, which seems to be the perfect book in figuring out which units to include. Its mostly confirming what I already thought, but now I'm into eras I don't know so much about. I'm up to about 1850, so I'll hold off on commenting to your modern stuff until I finish the book.

But I do have one comment regarding the use of surveillence planes. Are these really useful if planes can only move 8, and radar vision is maxed out at 2? And does the AI know how to use them?

By the way, one wierd thing I just read you guys might find interesting. Turns out the Ironclad should have come earlier, about 1840 instead of 1860. It was made possible by the invention of the screw propeller in 1837, allowing steam ships to not have huge paddlewheels. The US immediately set out to built one, and did. But there was a row between the scientists, and the smarter guy got fired. Then, when it was unveiled with big ceremony, the gun blew up, killing the Secretary of State, Secretary of the Navy, and several congressmen! President Tyler happened to be off getting a snack or would have died too. So the development program was cancelled until the Civil War.

That's the fickleness of history for ya!

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by Canadian_Patriot
I think we need to agree on what the Manhatten Project was. First of all, it was getting all of the brains together at the University of Chicago, I think, to figure out if an atomic weapon was even feasible. Once they'd decided that it could be done, and discovered how to do it, they all moved out to the Nevada desert to actually get the thing done.

I can see the argument behind needing a university and needing a factory, but I say university is more important.

Matt

That was my understanding also. i just did a quick lookup of the project and found its cost in 1996 dollars as $20 billion. maybe we can use this to balnce real life costs with game costs (means it cost the same as 10-15 AEGIS Cruisers)

BTW CP, did i miss it, but whats your opinion of these wonders?
What might be nice is that at some point the 3 of us grab a chatroom somewhere and have an interactive brainstorm.

[Canadian_Patriot]

I'm waiting for you two guys to come to agreement before I step into this. If we're all posting ideas, corrections, and critiques, that's just going to be complicated. Once you two gents have come to a middle ground, I'll give it a look-see.

Matt

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Harlan
But I do have one comment regarding the use of surveillence planes. Are these really useful if planes can only move 8, and radar vision is maxed out at 2? And does the AI know how to use them?[QUOTE]
Unfortunately, until air ranges are increased, modern surveillance planes/satellites are not practical. The only one that is practical is the bi-plane whose range would fit into the 8 max.

By the way, one wierd thing I just read you guys might find interesting. Turns out the Ironclad should have come earlier, about 1840 instead of 1860. It was made possible by the invention of the screw propeller in 1837, allowing steam ships to not have huge paddlewheels. The US immediately set out to built one, and did. But there was a row between the scientists, and the smarter guy got fired. Then, when it was unveiled with big ceremony, the gun blew up, killing the Secretary of State, Secretary of the Navy, and several congressmen! President Tyler happened to be off getting a snack or would have died too. So the development program was cancelled until the Civil War.

That's the fickleness of history for ya!

Excellant. I never heard that part of it before. I had always heard the history of them starting in the civil war.

On a side note, there's evidence that the greeks used steam technology to achieve religious illusions. And also i once saw some pictures of ancients steam "turbines" but they couldnt think of any practical applications. Imagine Romans on trains...scarey.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

I just ran a quick game up to 100ad to see how the new terrain numbers + settler=3 plays out. (i did remove the shield from coast as it didnt make sense to me) I had this fabulous start with grasslands and rivers on the coast. Altho i had about 1/3 grassland tiles with a shields, i only had one forest and no hills. my city grew large and rich very fast but its production was pathetic without the ability to mine grasslands. i quickly was in last place because I couldnt match the settler spawl of the AIs. It did appear to me that AI expansion was slightly slower than normal.

i posted my beta 0.2 up on my ftp site so you guys can see what i did.

[Harlan]

Here's a couple paragraphs I grabbed off the internet about the Cluny Abbey:

A single spire, at once elegant and robust, rises in the Burgundian sky – all that remains of what was once the largest, mightiest and most influential abbey of the Middle Ages.

Founded in 910, Cluny Abbey owed its extraordinary reputation to its strict observance of the Benedictine Rule which made it answerable only to Rome. At the height of its power, the abbey commanded over ten thousand monks living in more than a thousand religious centres stretching from England to Italy and from the Iberian Peninsula to the depths of Germany.
The abbey was also well served by the strength of character and the longevity of its first six abbots, the last of whom, Hugh, a native of Semur-en-Brionnais, was instrumental in rebuilding the abbey church which was to remain the largest church in Christendom until the 16C. With its five naves and a great narthex, a double transept and a choir basking in the glory of radiating chapels, a central nave thirty metres in height and even higher cupolas under the bell towers, the abbey church made a fitting setting for lavish and sumptuous liturgies. Here, the infinite beauty of the Gregorian plainsong was matched by the exquisite sculpted and painted décor.

Popes, kings and emperors were frequent visitors to a place which was synonymous with spirituality but also a force in the realm of the arts, thought and politics. Scarcely a tenth – but what a tenth! – of the church and the numerous buildings survives to remind us of the prestige of this "Light of the Middle Ages" whose flame was to die out with the advent of the Cistercians and the new mendicant orders - so much so that it fell an easy victim to demolition in the wake of the French Revolution, at a time when the notion of "historical monument" was still in its infancy. In spite of the destruction, there is still much to admire and learn from an exhaustive visit of Cluny and the exploration of the many buildings representing the Cluny style.

Here's the scoop on the Wild Goose Pagoda (there actually are two side by side amd three different wandering monks involved, so I guess I should call it the Wild Goose Pagodas):

The Big Wild Goose Pagoda

The Silk Road brought all sorts of strange and wonderful ideas to China in addition to the material trade. In 652 A.D., Xuan Zang returned from India, where he had spent 18 years studying Buddhism. The entire city celebrated his return. The crown prince Li Zhi had built the Temple of Great Mercy and Goodness in 648 A.D. in honor of his mother. The Big Wild Goose Pagoda was added to preserve the manuscripts of Buddhist texts that Xuan Zang had brought with him to translate into Chinese. Of note is the calligraphy set into the walls on both sides of the south door of the pagoda. It is still possible to climb to the top of this structure.

Little Wild Goose Pagoda

The Little Wild Goose Pagoda stands in Da Jianfu Temple, to the south of the walled city. The temple, was originally established in 684 A.D. in honor of Li Zhi - Emperor Gaozong of Tang dynasty. It was particularly associated with Buddhist Monk Yijing, who translated Buddhist scriptures he had brought back from India.

Da Jianfu Temple and Monk Yijing

The Temple was the place where the great translator Monk Yijing translated Buddhist scriptures. Yijing set out by sea for India in search of Buddhist principle in 671. On his way back to China with some 400 volumes of holy Sanskirt scriptures after traveling over 30 countries for more than 20 years, he once stayed on Island of Sumatra in Indonesia for investigation. Yijing translated altogether 56 volumes of scriptures in Da Jianfu Temple and wrote the book Biography of Eminent Monks in the Tang dynasty in Search of Buddhist Truth in India, which was regarded as a companion to Pilgrimage to India by Xuanzang, and of great help to the study of Chinese and Indonesian history and the cultural exchange.

[Harlan]

We all seem to be online and posting. Is there some way to do a chat room?

By the way, AW, I'd still like to hear if you think City State should be added. I kinda like it, but I'm also afraid of feature creep (adding more and more stuff).

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by Harlan
We all seem to be online and posting. Is there some way to do a chat room?

By the way, AW, I'd still like to hear if you think City State should be added. I kinda like it, but I'm also afraid of feature creep (adding more and more stuff).

Harlan, we all just realized that too. can you get a quickie Aol Instant Messanger account (freebie)

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

Originally posted by Harlan
We all seem to be online and posting. Is there some way to do a chat room?

By the way, AW, I'd still like to hear if you think City State should be added. I kinda like it, but I'm also afraid of feature creep (adding more and more stuff).

I'd vote for it...it was a legitimate early republic.

[Harlan]

I'd rather not - I'd rather not be able to have instant messaging, cos then I'd be using it for other things, and being on the computer even more than I am. I'm against being too contactable, for instance don't have a cell phone and don't want one. But if you knew of a chat room to use, that would be easy.

[ALPHA WOLF 64]

does apolyton have chatrooms? AIM does. i just got a business cell phone last week for the first time in 6 years. i refuse to wear a pager again tho.