MOD: Patch suggestion MOD

[player1]

This is the temporary link to PtW version of this MOD (until it gets moved to files forum).

[player1]

Hmm...
Actualy, that's real PtW version link too.

[player1]

Now, OK people.


Here is a Retro-CHALLENGE!

How it works:
You should think about changes in this MOD and give some valid reson why something needs to be changed back to original values (as in vanilla Civ3).

Then post some good resons why should in be done.

As a reward, if reson was good enough, I would revert that chnage to original values.

[alexman]

Originally posted by player1
Here is a Retro-CHALLENGE!

How about bringing back the original cost for musketmen? The reduced cost shortens the lifespan of knights, and now with PTW there are even more civs with knight-level UUs. It makes it too tempting to skip Chivalry and go directly for Cavalry. With the original cost, only rich civs could afford to instantly upgrade their pikemen when they got Gunpowder. This was also the case in real life, by the way: Pikemen did not disappear with gunpowder.

[player1]

Personnaly I would think it would be OK, if all those civs would be able to still make Pikemen after they get Gunpowder.

But that's just not possibile. So you need to use one very expensive unit for defense. That's why I give them cost of 50.

It's still expenisve if you compare it's defense cost efficiency to Pikemen (3 for 30 vs 4 for 50).

And it's very much compatibile with Med. Infantry (4/2/1/cost40 vs 3/4/1/cost50). Don't you think?

Now I don't think that Muskets make Knight obsolete (for same resons why Spearmen doesn't make Horsemen obsolete).
Yes cities are usualy bigger with gives them extra +50% bonus on defense, but remember that in order to get Cavalry you need to research some very expensive techs.

And, by the way, upgrade difference between cost of 50 and 60 for Muskets is 40 vs 60 gold. That's 33% discount (not realy game breaking).

And you usualy need Monotheism (for Cathedrals, and later for wonders and Banks) and Pikemen (for better defense), more soon then Engineering (both prereq. for Chivarly).

[player1]

Plus it changes Musketeers (4/4/1/cost 50) to very cool unit.

[player1]

Things planned for next version:

Cossaks will be get AI defense flag removed.
I've seen Russians using Cossaks to defend cities instead of Infantry.
That's not good.

Still I'll keep their defense of 5. They would not be primary defenders, but they would be though to take out on open, and Musketmen although a little bit weaker are pretty cheap. Still, Riflemen comes pretty quickly, so all problems would be solved then.


Next, I plan to change Frigate a little bit.
First, Frigate will get attack of 3, which means stats 3(2)/2/4.
While Man-O-War will get attack of 4, but with original defense of 2, which means stats of 4(3)/2/4.
While Ironclads would get a little bit reduced cost of 90 (still more then original).

I would not increase bombard strenght of thsese units, since that would encourage "bomb with several, destroy with one" strategy too much.


My resoning was, that historicly, main difference between Ironclads and wooden ships was in ARMOR, and NOT in weapons. These changes reflect that. Ironlcad has not much better offense, but has pretty good defense.
With new stats Man-O-War becomes pretty interesting vessel. Attack power of Ironclad (cannon heavy ship), while on the other hand pretty vunerable against Ironclads (and even Frigates).

Ironclad is not so much owerpowering as before so price would be reduced to 90, but not back to original 80, since that would ALWAYS make them better choice then Firgate.


What do you think?
Are these changes good?



P.S.
Also I'm thinking about giving Caravels back defense of 2 (to be protected from Galleys).
Also, since Privateer is based on smaller ships like Caravel, I would add defense of 2 to Privateers (they should not be more vunerable then Caravel), but give them original cost od 60 (stats of 2/2/4, 60). With higher attack and bombard rating, Frigate is still better.

[player1]

Version 1.4 is OUT!


Comments to changes in v1.4

Cossaks get AI defense flag removed, since I've seen Russians using Cossaks instead Infantry to defend cities. And that's not good.

Frigate gets attack of 3, while Man-O-War gets attack of 4, but with original defense of 2. My reasoning was, that historicly, main difference between Ironclads and sailing ships was in ARMOR, and NOT in weapons. These changes reflect that. Ironclad has not much better offense, but has pretty good defense. With new stats Man-O-War becomes pretty interesting vessel. Has attack power of Ironclad (cannon heavy ship), while on the other hand is pretty vulnerable against Ironclads (and even Frigates).

These changes made Ironclad not so much powerful as before so price is reduced to 90 (but not back to original 80, since that would ALWAYS make them better choice then Frigate).

Caravels get back defense of 2 (to be protected from Galleys). Plus, since Privateer is based on smaller ships like Caravel, I've added defense of 2 to Privateers (they should not be more vulnerable then Caravel), but gave them original cost of 60 shields.

[player1]

Thing that could be interesting to add in next version:

Changing spy experience to Veteran (was Regular) for all non-communist governments and to Elite (was Veteran) for Communist government.

That way, I'll increase chances for spying missions, which are by default low.

I will not change Diplomat experience from Regular, so you'll have good reason to use spy instead of Diplomat for Steal Tech mission.


Also I'm thinking about adding Steal World Map mission to Diplomats.
World Map is most useful in ancient era anyway.


What do you think?

[player1]

Several retro-changes I'm planning:

ROF for Batteship and AEGIS Cruiser will be changed back to 2.

With ROF of 3, they were realy powerfull, especialy Batteship, which could be as good as bomber, and also an assault ship.

Jet's bombard strenght will be put back to 2, while F-15 and Stl. Fighter will get 4.
Also Stl. Bomber gets original price of 240.
While this will make Fighter and Jet with same bomard strenght, remember that Jet has lethal land flag and range of 6.
Older aircraft changes didn't add much in gameplay, but have forced cheaper price of Stl. Bomber (and original price of 240 is better).

What do you think?
Good or bad?


P.S.
Also I'm having mixed feeling about Air Bombard strategy for Jets and Fighters.
Basicly, units made using this strategy will be used for bombard and NEVER for Air Super. missions, which is not good. On the other hand if I take that flag out, only human will use them for bomabrd against heavily wonded units, making good use of lethal flag. Still in most cases AI would not be fighting wounded units, and bom. str. of 2 is usualy not enough to take out 1hp unit with one try (he'll need at least several Fighters, which means a lot of Fighters never used for Air Super.)

So on the average taking out those flags would be good option.

Still, F-15 and St; Fighter will keep it as usual.

[kettyo]

Originally posted by player1
Also I'm having mixed feeling about Air Bombard strategy for Jets and Fighters.
Basicly, units made using this strategy will be used for bombard and NEVER for Air Super. missions, which is not good.

I use a slightly modified version of your mod with both AI air defense and bombard checked for fighters and jet fighters and they've shot down plenty of my bombers in a past game. (although i crushed their base-city with land forces as retaliation )
So they used air superiority (while also try to bomb me with fighters).

Please don't take lethal bombing capability from fighter class planes. It makes the game much more enjoyable and real.

I don't give lethal to stealth fighter but his bombing capacity is about half of stealth bomber. It's a personal preference. I like to be able to defend against lethal threats (just the cruise missile can't be destroyed).

So in Civ3 1.29f lethal fighters work perfectly.
I still have to test it myself in Ptw 1.14f too.

[player1]

Ok I'll keep AI strategies.

P.S.
But will do other changes: bomb str. of 2 & 4 (instead of 3 & 5).

P.P.S.
And I'll NEVER remove lethal abilities.

They are go good from strategic perspective.

[Mad Bomber]

Player 1:

Good job on the mod, sounds great but I have a couple areas that I believe need improvement.

1) Bombarment values need to be increased. Firaxis has consistently increased the defense of buildings and citizens until it reached a staggering 16 in v. 1.29. This has made the vanilla civ 3 bombard values all but useless, changing ROF is a good idea but will not be usefull until the actual values of the bombardment are increased for all units. As for the low bombardment of jet fighters, I would like to know why. Jet fighters have all but replaced the bomber in the traditional role of attrition of enemy ground forces. this unit and the F-15 UU are in dire need of a major boost in bombardment value. As for the F-15 its attack and defense values should be altered slightly to make it better in air superiority

2) Riflemen should be 5/6/1 which would be simlar to your change of musketmen.

3) I have Infantry as 8/10/1, marines as 10/10/1 and parras as 8/12/1. Much for the reasons you have already stated.

I suggest the following mods:

Bombardment increases:

Bomber to 16 (lethal sea bombardment and ability to see subs)
Cannnon to 12
Helicopopter to 16 (modded from transport unit, lethal land and sea bombardment, ability to see subs)
Artillery to 16
Radar Arty, Battleship, F-15 and stealth aircraft to 20.
Jet Fighters to 16
Fighters to 12

Air unit mods:

Fighter :4(12)/5/2
Jet Fighter: 8(16)/10/2
Bomber:0(16)/2/2
F-15: 10(20)/12/2
Stealth Fighter 2(20)/4/2
Stealth Bomber: 0(20)/2/2

[player1]

Looks too MAD.

But, we shall see.

[player1]

Here we go again (another revision):

Battleship: 10/2 (was 8/3), cost 220 (was 240)
AEGIS Cruiser: 6/2 (was 4/3)

Jet Fighter: 4/2 (was 3/2)
F-15: 6/2 (was 5/2)
Stl. Fighter: 6/2 (was 5/2), cost 160 (was 120)
Stl. Bomber: cost 240 (was 200)

P.S.
And of course spy changes I discussed before (steal world map for diplomats and veteran spy status).