The Mod-With No Name (yet!) Discussion and Test Thread!

[Velociryx]

'k folks from my website who are looking for places to drop files in progress for intital testing and discussion on them.....here's a thread we can use. When we get a finalized version ready, we'll start a new thread (with a name for the mod, when we get around to selecting one!) over in the "Files" section, but....since we're still creating, I figured this would be the place for us!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

The Basics:

'k....copied from my site for those at 'poly who have not seen our discussions, this is AT A MINIMUM what is being considered for the initial release (and guys, if I missed anything, or if you think something else should be added/removed, chime in!)
(see the ongoing debates at http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/hartpence)

* New Lux Items (sugar, tobacco, rum)

* New Bonus Resources (Bananas, Salt Flats)

* New Techs

*Tech Tree re-arranging proposed

* Terrain changes
-Allow mining of forests (logging)
-Remove mining of either grasslands or plains
-Irrigation of hills allowed

*Specialists - Taxmen and Scientists now provide 4 coins/beakers

* Unit Additions (Coracle, Mines, zero-resource units, etc)

* Unit Changes (Gachnar's HP scale, and Sev's combat modifiers, projectile wielding bombards, higher numbers, etc).

* Barbarian changes (nothing set in stone yet...my preference is Sword/Knight/Privateer as default units)

* New city names and such re: DarkAngel's extensive work!

-=Vel=-

[cassembler]

I like irrigating tundras to make them comparable to plains... two food, two trade, no production.... Kinda forces you to keep some of them there forests for logging camps...

[Velociryx]

's a good idea, but I'm wondering if it won't hurt some maps....specifically, I'm thinking of Marla's earth map....making Greenland and Siberia so settler friendly might cause MAJOR unbalances. One thing about tundra starts is: Once you switch to Demo, you can actually get decent sized cities in Tundra areas (IIRC3 food from sea squares post-harbor, freeing up pop points to work that mined (logged) forest!).

-=Vel=-

[Thoth]

I was thinking allong the opposite lines. Make tundra virtually uninhabitable. 0/1/0 No irrigation, +1 mining, no trade bonus.
This I think will cut down on AI arctic sprawl and make colonies a lot more useful (I've never built one) and a viable option even in the late game. It should be possible to build on game squares, but not on forests. I'll be testing this in my next game.

I like this for realism effects (there just aren't very many cities waaay up north), and I find the AI cities built on every square inch of tundra to be rather irritating.

Vel: Post harbour you only get 2 food per coast/sea square unless it's a bonus tile.

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: But does not Demo give you an additional +1? Or am I mis-remembering? LOL
-=Vel=-

[Thoth]

Option #2 I think.

[Velociryx]

Thoth....that does not surprise me in the least! LOL

'k folks, as always, if I miss something, feel free to chime in, but in the interest of getting V1.0 hammered out into playability, here goes nothing!
*********

Civ-Trait Modifications:
Scientific Civs: Get Writing as an additional tech (trial period for testing)

Expansionists: Get the Coracel (SP?) at game start, cos we'll set it to have a pre-req of Pottery. 0/0/2 Carries 1 unit, coastal ship only

Militarists: Review all militarists and make sure they have top of the line units (certainly best in class). Perhaps, we could start militarists off with 20 gold, rather than ten? (again, trial period for testing)
****

Hurry Costs:
The gold/shield ratio should be flipped (make it 4 in the ancient era and middle ages, switching to 8 upon the discovery of economics). This seems counter-intuitive, and in fact, it very definitely IS, however, it should be a step in the right direction re: balancing late game economic capacity and the ability to rush vast numbers of units nearly instantly.
****

Specialists
Taxmen and Scientists now generate 4 gold/beakers respectively (pre-requisites of Banking and Education, per Sev's recommendation) Reasoning: Since each pop point "costs" two food to maintain, this makes them profitable again, as opposed to being essentially leeches. It also sets up the possibility of viable specialist cities again, and prompts city growth beyond 20. Again, more strategic choice, which is the essence of the game.
****

Research Rate
Minimum Research Time (in turns) has been set to zero (1, if 0 is not possible). Reasoning: This takes the shackles off of players and allows, again, more strategic choice. Note though, that even with minrate = 0 the advantages are short-lived, as the techs you already know become correspondingly cheaper for the AI to research. Note that this MAY require late game techs to be ramped up in price.
****

Unit Hit Points
Gachnar's HP scale (3/4/5/7) has been adopted. Note that in addition to that basic change, the RoF of all artillery pieces has been doubled (making artillery slightly more effective than it was before, since unit HP's have not quite doubled).
****

Changes to terrain:
Grassland: No mining allowed!
Forests: Mining (logging) +1 Shield

New Resource Types/Changes to Existing Resource Types:
Cows: Become visible with "Animal Husbandry" tech

Wheat Stalks: Become visible with "Crop Rotation" tech

Bananas (jungle): +2 Food

Salt Flats (desert): +2 Shields

Oasis (desert): +2 Food/+2 Commerce

Rum (Lux): Becomes visible with "Nautical Tradition" tech (Appear: 120)

Sugar (and Wine): Become visible with "Monotheism" tech Appear: 120

Insense: Becomes visible with "Polytheism" tech: Appear: 120

(we'll add Coffee & Tobacco later, and make its appearance tech-specific, but since the tech hasn't been added/decided upon yet, we'll table it for the moment)

Appearance/Disappearance ratios:
In a further move to weaken plains/grasslands, some of the lux items ON those terrain types will be given appearance/disappearance ratios. These are:

Wine (vineyards closing down and relocating)

Ivory (elephant herds hunted to extinction or moving off)

Rum (distilleries closing down/moving off)

*****

Tech-Tree Changes/Moves/Additions:

"Animal Husbandry" NEW! (Ancient Era Tech) Cost 2 - Pre-req. Pottery (which also costs 2) - Makes Cows visible on the map.

"Diplomacy" NEW! (Ancient Era Tech) Cost (same as Republic) - Pre-req. Code of Laws, Map Making, Philosophy, Literature - Makes Comm Frequency trading possible, allows for the establishment of Embassies, Military Alliance (bascially, all the diplo options currently set at "Code of Laws" - Also makes the Highwayman unit available (3/2/2 Colorless).

"Nautical Tradition" NEW! (Middle Ages Tech)Pre-Req = Engineering Cost: 32 Makes all wooden sailing ships available (ocean-going!)- Privateers available here.

"Crop Rotation" NEW! (Middle Ages Baseline Tech) Cost: 26 (Makes wheat stalks available)

Libraries - moved back to writing on the thinking that there would be SOME PLACE to store written works even before the advent of literature per se....however, the Great Library should remain where it is (this is mostly on the thinking that every non-starting Ancient Era tech should net SOME tangible benefit). Heroic Epic also moved here.

Map Making: "Explorer" unit moved here.

Philosophy: Forbidden Palace moved here

Polytheism: move Hanging Garden here

Printing Press: Sun Tzu's Art of War

Chemisty: move Metallurgy's "neutralize Great Wall" ability to here.

Physics: Remove Theory of Gravity as a tech and move Newton's University here. That frees up an extra slot for a new tech.

Medicine: move the "eliminate disease from flood plain" ability to here & Hospitals.

Sanitation: Sewer Systems build added here.

The Corporation: move Universal Suffrage to here (AFTER Factories)

Steel: move Artillery over from Replaceable Parts to here. RP is already too good, and this seems like a nice place.

Atomic Theory: Uranium appears on the map (a LOT earlier than before, but ask the Curies about how long we've known about radioactivity)

Radio: required for the Pentagon, whose requirements decrease to 2 armies (that field is already in the editor); radio is required to coordinate large armies, after all. Airports moved here.

Move the neutralizing of the Hanging Garden from Steam Power to Electricity, just to give it an icon

Make Electricity needed for Steel? You can currently get Flight without Electricity, and it'd make the Industrial Age a VERY interwoven time

Move Amphibious War way up. We had Marines before we had Steam Power, so put it off of Nationalism (Note that this is a temporary fix, as we're tabling the Amphib.Units until release 2.0, at which time we can simply remove this tech, if we opt for several types of Amphib. Units available at various points in the game).

Advanced Flight should have Mass Production as a prerequisite instead of Motorized Transportation
*****

Military Units Changes:
Naval:
Galley 1.1.3
Caravel 1.1.4
Privateer 4.3.6
Frigate 6.6.5 (8).1.2
Galleon 1.2.5
Ironclad 8.8.4 (4).1.2 (This was to make it coexist with Frigate, giving them distinct roles)
Destroyer 12.12.8 (10).1.2 120 shields
Cruiser (new unit) 16.16.8 (12).1.2 140 shields
Battleship 28.28.10 (28).2.6 360 shields
Carrier 6.10.8 (6).1.2 carry4 180 shields
Submarine 14.12.5
Missile Destroyer (new unit)32.32.10 BLITZ, 180 shields
AEGIS Cruiser 42.42.10 BLITZ, SEESUB, 280 shields
Supercarrier 1.12.12 carry12 360 shields
Nuclear Submarine 48.36.12 240 shields

Land:
Musketman 2.4.1 (60) --> 3.6.1 (60)
Musketeer 3.4.1 (60) --> 4.6.1 (60)
Cannon 0.0.1 (8).1.1 (60) --> 0.0.1 (10).1.x
Cavalry 6.3.3 (80) --> 9.4.3 (80)
Rifleman 4.6.1 (80) --> 5.12.1 (80)
Infantry 6.10.1 (90) --> 8.16.2 (90)
Artillery 0.0.1 (12).2.2 --> 0.0.2 (18).2.x
Marine 8.6.1 (100) AmpA --> 18.16.2 (120) AmpA
Paratrooper 6.8.1 (100) PDrop --> 9.18.2 (100) PDrop
Tank 16.8.2 (100) Blitz --> 24.16.3 (160) Blitz
Mech Infantry 12.18.2 (110) --> 24.42.3 (240)
Modern Armor 24.16.3 (120) Blitz --> 48.24.3 (280) Blitz
added Attack Helicopter --> 48.12.5 (360) AllAsRoad Blitz noFortifyCommand
Radar Artillery 0.0.1 (16).2.2 --> 0.0.3 (36).2.x

Air:
Fighter 4.2.1 (2).0(4).1 (80) --> 12.6.1 (12).0(4).x
Helicopter 0.2.1 (80) --> 0.8.1 (40)
Bomber 0.2.1 (8).0(6).3 (100) --> 0.4.3 (18).0(6).x (160) Blitz
Jet Fighter 8.4.1 (2).0(6).1 (100) removed
replaced by Interceptor Fighter --> 16.32.2 (12).0(6).x (160) Blitz
and also by Strike Fighter --> 32.16.3 (20).0(6).x (160) Blitz
F-15 8.4.1 (4).0(6).2 (100) --> 36.18.3 (24).0(6).x (160) Blitz
Stealth Fighter 0.0.1 (4).0(6).2 (120) --> 0.0.3 (24).0(6).x (160) Blitz
Stealth Bomber 0.0.1 (8).0(6).3 (240) --> 0.0.5 (32).0(8).x (320) Blitz
****

Other General Changes:
All missile troops have been given ZOC & a Range 0 Bombard to allow them to attack incoming troops

Armies: Reduce price by 20%, give Blitz and ZOC, change ratio from 1:4 cities to 1:3 cities
****

New Units:
Mercenaries:
New unit category whose exact in-game effects are unknown without extensive testing. Essentially, the goal is to create a line of "barbarian units" (neutral color) that require a pop-point to build. It is unknown at this time whether these units will alter game play sufficiently to warrant their inclusion, and they should be considered "in" on a trial basis only. Privateer - Change attack value to four (see below on Naval Units).

Buccaneer - 2/2/1 Foot unit (this'll be what the new barbarian foot unit is set to) - available with Map Making/Galleys) - If we decide we wanna adopt Amphib. Assault units available at various times/techs, and not just with the current Amp. tech, then this unit could be given Amp. Ability in version 2.0

Highwayman - 3/2/2 Fast Unit - I'd love to include the Stirrups tech, but fear overspending what tech slots we have to work with in the Ancient Era. Would a viable compromise be to make them available at Diplomacy (Diplomacy....at swordpoint?) (this can be set to the standard Barb. Horse unit).

(More in the later eras? One thing that keeps me from adding more is that here's where the Merc-units begin to bleed into the "Zero-Resource" units listed below.....)

Zero-Resource Units
Middle Ages:
Frontiersman (the equal to the Musket Man, price doubled)

Man-At-Arms (Foot soldier 4/3/1 treats all terrain as roads - 2.5 times the cost of a knight)

Light Cavalry (5/2/3) - 2.5 times the price of normal cav

Industrial Ages:
Partisan (pseudo-infantry) - price tripled

Guerilla (pseudo-marine) - price tripled

Light Tank (same -1 attack, same d/m, no blitz) - price 2.5x normal tank

Land Mine (0/1/0) Artillery Unit Sea Mine (0/1/0)

Artillery Unit Armored Personnel Carrier (0/4/3) Troop Carrier* (exact stats subject to debate/change)

Modern units still being developed and considered (but not for the 1.0 release)

Graphically, the zero-resource units will use the same graphics as their stronger, cheaper counterparts, but a distinctive graphic for the Man-At-Arms would rock!

-=Vel=-

Edit: For testing purposes, if it's possible to make Sun Tzu a minor wonder (to allow all civs to build it, I think we should, as this will give the AI civ's a chance to get barracks everywhere, and per Arrian's comments on the 'poly forums, this may serve to dramatically increase AI combat performance!) Thoughts there?

[SithUK]

added Attack Helicopter --> 48.12.5 (360) AllAsRoad Blitz noFortifyCommand

I was wondering if u were planning on giving the helicopter the pillage ability? If it does then it would be used to move ahead of the main front ripping up roads/railroads to hamper the enemy getting reinforcements in. Isn't this what the Paratrooper unit is supposed to be for? Or is the helicopter meant to be replace the para in this roll?

Excellent work so far (I'm a daily lurker on the your mod project forum so I know how much work you guys have put in!)

Regards,

Sith

[Grim Leaper]

great suggestions.

and now, here are mine:
i'm not entially sure if this is true, but from my experiences the ai seems to be able to see resources before they appear, and thus would have a huge advantage with your changes.

i;m not to sure about your 'highwayman' unit. they were not ordered or commisioned by any nation, and played not such an important part in history.

giving expansionist civs the coracle may lead to problems with starting locations (inland as opposed to coast), but otherwise i would defently put it in.

Uranium shouldn't appear with atomic theory, but later on (the curies merly discorved it's radioactive properties, not how to utalise it)

i hope these are useful.

[Velociryx]

Hey all, and thanks for the comments!

Sith, the short answer to your question regarding Helicopters is I'm not sure! Sev (our Master Modder) gave us those numbers, and I'm not 100% sure what all the rationale behind them is, but I'll find out!

Grim: Yep....the Highwayman and other "colorless" units is being added in as something of an experiment....in fact, I've been doing some testing with that category of unit, and :: gulp:: they're heinously powerful! Probably a broken unit as it stands now, but that's why we've not made any kind of public release yet....needs testing so we can be sure.

As to the position of Uranium, that's one thing we discussed over on my board where we're cooking all the particulars up. It's true that the utilization of that particular resource does not come till later, but our rationale behind its move was that the Curies discivered it, and it's radioactive properties far sooner than the game initially reflects. As it stands, you now can discover WHERE the Uranium is a long time before you can actually do anything constructive with it.....I'm thinking it'll help with strategic planning, but again, we'll have to test all that out more extensively to ensure it has the "desired effect"

And here's the latest results from my own testing (Colorless units):

Holy $hit! Learned a few hard lessons in testing today! First, Soren's AI does indeed, know how to use newly added units.

Second, colorless units CAN capture rival Civ towns without triggering a general war!

Was playing a large map test game....started near the Japs, who were mightily hemmed in by me, the Chinese, and the Zulu, so I set about constructing a 10 unit Horseman force to strip them of most, if not all of their cities.

Started the war, and things went swimmingly, three cities captured in two turns, and then....

From outta nowhere these two little Explorer guys popped up (I was using their graphics for the "Highwayman"). They proceeded to THRASH my wounded and resting Horsemen, and take two of the recently acquired Japanese towns from me! Yowza!

Considering this *heinously powerful* ability, I'm gonna try testing Infantry-based colorless units at one pop point (leaving them the same), and fast colorless units at two. As it stands now, even with one pop point factored into their cost, it's no contest....I'll build colorless units every time. It may, in fact, turn out that we need to make them cost 2 and 3 pop points respectively (slow and fast) to make them balanced....that left me with my jaw hanging down! Too cool!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Other Mod-test observations:

There was some fear/worry that increasing the strength of the default barbarians would hamstring the AI's ability to expand. In my testing, I'm happy to report that this does not seem to be the case.

In fact, the "one-two punch" effect of stripping away cows and wheat from visibility on the open, when counted with the newly strengthened Barbarians leaves the human player at the decided disadvantage. Given the AI's production and growth modifiers on the higher levels of play, they're very nearly unaffected by the absence of the plains bonus food tiles, able to expand very nearly as fast as they were before, and the human player is left floundering in the early game. I've regularly had to square off against AI Empires double the size of my own since I began testing various elements of the mod. Of course, the human player does even things out with the arrival of "Animal Husbandry" but by then, the AI has been able to expand without as much human interference, and they've generally been doing a really good job of it. That, coupled with their ability to bounce back much more quickly than the human player from Barbarian Horde attacks leaves the AI in a superior position overall, and, IMO, makes for some *very* interesting early game situations.

With a bit more tweaking of these colorless units and some of the other proposed changes, I think we'll be able to say that our mod will dramatically alter the flow of the game, and give everyone who plays it significantly more strategic choice.

-=Vel=-

[korn469]

Vel

i'm not sure if you know this or not and if it has any bearing on your mod

with all of the other resources even when you don't see them you still get their effect, have you tested this with wheat?

well even if you still get the bonus but you can't see it i'm sure it would slow the human down a little

also is your aim to slow down expansion?
i changed settler to 3 pop four shields with some success

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hey Vel and Co,

Just thought I'd let you know that I have the FINAL EDIT of my new Civstats file that I'd like to contribute to this mod with no name-I hope it comes in handy.

Just a couple of nitpicking items:

1) I don't think that animal husbandry or crop rotation should be seperate techs. In particular, animal husbandry is sought of assumed under The Wheel or Horseback Riding, as it seems to represent the overall animal domestication process. Basically, I have cattle becoming available with the wheel and wheat available with Monarchy. Until that time you can have sheep and barley bonus resource.

2) I have also included improved livestock (avail. imperialism) and improved crops (availbale with Chemistry).

3) Sugar and Rum should not be seperate luxuries, as rum is just fermented sugar cane anyway!! Thats why I have the distillery improvement (unfortunately, you can't have either/or requirements)

EDIT: Changed the Civ3Finaledit file with the following:

1)Added 3 new improvements-Dry-Dock, Port Facility and Naval Academy (and downgraded harbour significantly).
2) Added several NEW units: Modern battleship, steamship and super carrier. Also added amphibious units. Naval Assault force (ancient), Coastal raiders and buccaneers (Middle Ages), Marine Riflemen (Late Middle Ages) and also Navy SEALS (Modern Marines). I also added the units SAS (Upgrade for both paratroopers and Spec-Ops), Amphibious Landing Craft (Industrial) and Amphibious Assault Craft. Hope this is useful.

Anyway, I'm attaching the file here so that you can have a look, please don't be too harsh!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Vel -- Wow, this mod looks really cool. I cannot wait to get my hands on it.

I have a couple of suggestions and comments.

Is there a way to make the prereqs for the pop limiting improvements different? In other words increase the likelihood that disease would keep the pop in check until the aqueduct and hospital are deployed. For instance a city not by a river could grow to pop 7 (w/o aqueduct) but the chance of a pop point lost to disease would increase to 40-60% with increases to this chance as the pop increases like pop 8 60-80%, pop 9 80-90%, pop 10 90-100%. There should also be a catastrophe prevention for these improvements as the populations increases. For instance a pop 14 city (w/ aqueduct and w/o hospital) has say a 40-60% chance of losing one pop point and a 5-10% chance of losing 10-40% of the population to smallpox. All of these factors would be influenced by surrounding terrain types.

To decrease late game tedium with workers (w/o stacking), how about the super worker (upgradable from worker) and the engineer (upgradable from SW), possibly even the super engineer?

Is it possible to have leader generation happen on actions other than combat? Would it be possible for a slight chance of leader generation to occur for the civ with the culture lead 1-2% chance. I find that I am unable to play pacifist without getting a leader to build the FP, and since it takes sooo long to get one sometimes (if ever) many wars are likely to occur that I normally would not pursue.

Lastly, besides the improvements to units in the later game, is there anything else we could add to the modern era to make the game more fun in that era. Most of you improvements address the ancient era which is by far the best era to play. Seems like we need some fresh or more improvements to the modern era. Also even though the modern era units are now KA, does the computer know to upgrade?