LEADERHEAD: Canadian: Trudeau

[Pompey]

You guys here seem to be taking yourselves a tad too seriously. First of all there is so much Canadian patriotism here that it becomes a little sickening. Who has ever heard of you guys anyway? In the annals of civilisation Canada doesn't even rank. What exactly have you guys offered the world to classify as a worthy civilisation to get entry into Civ3 anyway? The mind truly boggles. And as for this talk over UU well that is all too much to take. I'm really sorry but who could ever accept a Shock Trooper unit or a peacekeeper one as the Canadian UU!?! The Canadian mountie would be much better but then again that would be too embarrassing now wouldn't it...not glorious enough. So you guys can go on hiding behind that Canadian leaf and think of yourslves as a mighty civilisation with a mighty UU as long as like. Reality is a bitter pill I know. As for the expansionistic bit...well may I remind you that you are the second largest country in the world largely becasue no one wanted the mass part of your country...I mean there is nothing up north bar snow...snow and well...more snow. The Americans tooks Alaska because of oil and geographic significance but largely ignored the Canadian hinterland. The same goes for all the imperial powers who once held sway in the 'Americas'. Canada is that size because no one wanted that land...not becasue the Canadians conquered it...nor because they had expansionistic tendencies. Exploratory ones perhaps but not expansionistic. Expansionistic implies a desire or will to expand outside one's immediate areas...like England, France, Germany etc...Just becasue you are Canadian does not in my opinion justify your inclusion into Civ 3 over civs such as the Americans, etc. Fine, the Iriquois civ seems to be Firaxis' way of not offending native American Indians but Canada is an insult to all humanity. I mean, who would ever consider adding Australians to Civ3...this is just as bad (even though I am Australian I would never claim to classify as a world civilisation...at least not yet...maybe in a couple of hundred or thousand years the way we're heading). Just some food for thought.

[Puritan]

Can anyone say Xenophobia?

With such a lack of respect for other cultures, it is little wonder the world is where it is. People like Pompey make it a scary place to live.

[wunder]

I like the double movement settler idea but...in order to get a golden age a civ must win a battle or build civ specific wonders. The first option would lost for Canada if it were a settler. I think mounties would be great too but...they were never an offensive unit. I don't recall hearing of mounties going to war? Other than patroling and quieting down some native american skirmishes. Mounties are just not a military unit. I do like the idea of a peace keeper unit. I'm just trying to figure out it's stats...I would love if it were able to put down 2 resisters as cam hardy mentioned. Not possible at this time, I guess. The only option that makes sense now, (for me anyway) is the shock troop. I've already downloaded different grafix from the file thread and made it the Canadian UU.

[Komet163]

Ok I see there is some very good debate here and and some bad debate. First the good. peackeeper unit is a good one however the unique unit is supposed to represent a period in which the cultures reached a high. In the early 20th century there was incredible optimism and ideas of the future in Canada. In fact WWI was also the greatest war in Canadian history with 600,000 men sent overseas with a population of 8 million and 60,000 of them did not return. During the war the Canadian troops proved to be incredibly effective compared to their European counterparts based on a leadership who wanted to conserve lives and actually plan attacks. The mountie unit is a good idea as that was a high point in Canadian history as well. One must remember that the Mounties were in fact a military police force sent to pretty much protect the Indians from the American Whiskey traders and the like. I would suggest a Calvary unit that has expanded movement to represent the great ride from Ontario to the West in a relatively short time with their cannons and military equipment. As for Canada not being deserving well look at the G7 or the 7 largest economies in the world, Canada is in that. The United States in fact tried to have control of the entire west but didn't manage due to Canada sending the Mounties, having treaties with the Indians, and building a railroad.

[rootdown]

I never thought I would see Canada in a Civ game. I don't think we are a civilization since a civilization engulfs more than just a nation or country but I also think we need to have fun in life and unlike Pompey I don't think you guys take yourself too seriously. Canada in Civ? Why not. If a bunch of canadians "want in" on civ3, why is this bad Pompey? If you want to play Australia, fine just do it. Who am I to b*tch about how a poor civilization australia would be since it started as a british penitentiary colony. And as far as center canada being a hintherland (nothing there but wheat fields to feed the nation), what is in central Australia? Yeah, that's what I thought too. So that's where random b*tching and stereotypes will get you: in senseless flaming.

Back to regular programming.

I agree for the expansionnist/commercial attributes. Canada is a commercial country, always one of the biggest exporters. Expansionnist, not anymore nowadays but when America was discovered, it was french-canadian explorers who discovered the Mississipi (spelling?) and Ohio rivers, who went west while the british/american colonies were stranded on the east coast. Then when the british took Nouvelle-France the english-canadians continued exploring en route to the pacific. Just this to say that a lot of the mythical "american west" had been trailblazed by french and english canadian explorers before the americans set foot there. So i feel expansionist civ fits the bill as long as expansionist does not mean imperialist (or militaristic) power to you.

[dannyevilcat]

Peacekeeper is a good choice, but personally I think it should be an improved destroyer (or frigate, if ever a new ship icon became available).

Our navy is practically the only thing deployed in conflict (along with our CF-18's, of course), and we have a rich maritime history. Re-live the Battle of the Atlantic civ-style!

Also, go expansionist/scientific. Commercial seems off a bit... our dollar is weak...

[muppet]

For the record. I am born American, and immigrated to Canada. Having resided here for so long, I now hold a Canadian Passport. And I AM PROUD TO BE CANADIAN!

Pompeii:
You guys here seem to be taking yourselves a tad too seriously. First of all there is so much Canadian patriotism here that it becomes a little sickening.

Reply:
I don’t remember reading any Canadian patriotism on this thread. If they were truly serious without any fun intended they would not be using Pierre Trudeau as the leader, as I believe MacDonald would more appropriately be called the father of Canada. But then, you would have to know something about Canadian history to understand the subtle irony in the choice of Pierre Trudeau.

Pompeii:
Who has ever heard of you guys anyway? In the annals of civilisation Canada doesn't even rank.

Reply:
From: Commonwealth Air Training Plan Museum
At the time the Plan was signed in December 1939, Canada had only 4,000 people in the Royal Canadian Air Force but enrollment reached 250,000 by the end of 1943.

Aircrew personnel from Australia, New Zealand, England and Canada were all trained under The Plan. Canada was chosen as the training country because of its preferable climate and the fact it was far from the dangers of enemy activity.

The Plan was referred to by Winston Churchill as Canada’s greatest contribution to the allied victory and referred to by President Roosevelt as the “aerodrome of Democracy".

Apparently, Prime Minister Winston Churchill and President Theodore Roosevelt have both heard of Canada.

Pompeii:
What exactly have you guys offered the world to classify as a worthy civilisation to get entry into Civ3 anyway?

Reply:
From: War At Sea 1939-1945 -
Operational strength of the Royal Canadian Navy during World war Two:
2 Aircraft Carriers
2 Light Cruisers
28 Destroyers
70 Frigates
96 Minesweepers/Escorts
123 Corvettes
8 Anti-Submarine Trawlers

From: 150 Squadron Royal Air Force
It is important to understand that although 150 was an RAF Squadron, very significant numbers of aircrew from the RAAF, RNZAF, RCAF and the SAAF were part of the squadron. In fact, during the period November 1943 to July 1944 only about 20% of the squadron was made up of members of the RAF or RAFVR. The remainder came from Commonwealth airforces.

Apparently, this span of wasteland with its small population and small military force managed to provide the logistic/economic support necessary to keep Britain alive long enough for the US mobilize its economy and enter the European Theatre. The RCAF, Royal CANADIAN airforce and Canadians flying for the British under the classification Commonwealth airforce pilots made up a large portion of the RAF that maintained air-superiority over Britain. This small population and military voluntarily contributed a truly disproportionate effort to a war that was none of its business. Where was the Australian Navy during wwii? How many units did the 3rd. largest continent, Australia, devote to D-Day?


Pompeii:
The mind truly boggles. And as for this talk over UU well that is all too much to take. I'm really sorry but who could ever accept a Shock Trooper unit or a peacekeeper one as the Canadian UU!?! The Canadian mountie would be much better but then again that would be too embarrassing now wouldn't it...not glorious enough. So you guys can go on hiding behind that Canadian leaf and think of yourslves as a mighty civilisation with a mighty UU as long as like.

Reply:
From: Royal Canadian Mounted Police
E. Military Record

Northwest Rebellion, 1885: Duck Lake, Fort Pitt, Cut Knife Hill, pursuit of Big Bear

South African War, 1899-1902: members represented in the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles and Lord Strathcona's Horse; in all, over 250 members served in the Canadian contingents and in the South African Constabulary

First World War, 1914-1918: cavalry squadrons provided for overseas service, "A" Squadron (England, France and Belgium), "B" Squadron (Siberia)

Second World War, 1939-1945: RCMP Marine and Air Section personnel transferred to the Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force, 1939; creation of No. 1 Provost Company for military police duties overseas

OTTAWA, Monday, February 24, 1997 ... Four RCMP members will be presented next Tuesday with the prestigious RCMP Merit Award for their contribution to an innovative violent crime analysis system. The creators of the Violent Crime Linkage Analysis System (ViCLAS) will be honoured for the development of this internationally acclaimed, computerized system, and will share a cash award of $10,000
ViCLAS is highly regarded as the best case linkage system in the world. It is currently being used in Canada, the US, Australia, Belgium, Austria, Great Britain and the Netherlands, and can collate data entered in any language

What is so embarrassing about a small population with a well trained police force capably of operating in the capacity of light cavalry during a crisis? Canadian technological achievements in policing (extension of peacekeeping) are apparently being used in Australia. For a small population, Canada has made an enormous contribution to the world. A very disproportionate contribution in industrial output, personnel and effort in the past and presently. Canadian peacekeeping forces (infantry units), their efforts and effectiveness, speak for themselves.

[muppet]

...continued

Pompeii:
Reality is a bitter pill I know. As for the expansionistic bit...well may I remind you that you are the second largest country in the world largely becasue no one wanted the mass part of your country...I mean there is nothing up north bar snow...snow and well...more snow.

Reply:
You probably do not recognize the war slogan “54-40 or fight”. It was the US slogan during the US-Canada war. If you look at an atlas you will find that the US-Canada border remains at the 49th. parallel and not the 54th. Apparently the US thought that the fertile Canadian plains were valuable, but could not take them. Apparently, Britain wanted Canadian beaver, but had to allow Canada succession.

Snow and more Snow? Canada was a valuable European colony because of its luxury resource (humour) CANADIAN beaver! Don't forget the Canadina Atlantic fish stocks that ALL the European super powers wanted as well. In today’s terms, Canada’s “snow” contains the world’s largest diamond mine, the world’s only commercially valuable jade deposit, and is the second largest energy supplier to the US, second only to OPEC. Not to mention its valuable forests.

Pompeii:
The Americans tooks Alaska because of oil and geographic significance but largely ignored the Canadian hinterland. The same goes for all the imperial powers who once held sway in the 'Americas'. Canada is that size because no one wanted that land...not becasue the Canadians conquered it...nor because they had expansionistic tendencies.

Reply:
From: Brief History of Alaska Statehood, A - considers the 100 years between "Seward's Folly" (1867) and statehood (1959).
On March 30, 1867, Secretary of State William H. Seward signed an agreement with Baron Edouard Stoeckl, the Russian Minister to the United States. The agreement, widely referred to as "Seward's Folly" (and "Seward's Icebox") ceded possession of the vast territory of Alaska to the United States for the sum of $7.2 million. Few citizens of the U. S. could fathom what possible use or interest the 586,000 square miles of land would have for their country.

From: Engineering Triumphs: The Trans Alaska Oil Pipeline
When oil was discovered in the North Slope area of the Brooks Range in Alaska in 1968 it was decided that the only way the crude could be transported was overland via a pipeline.

Have you ever attended school? Alaska was purchased in 1867. Oil was discovered in 1968, leading to the subsequent construction the Alaskan pipeline. As to the European powers, “not wanting Canada”, that has already been explained.

Pompeii:
Exploratory ones perhaps but not expansionistic. Expansionistic implies a desire or will to expand outside one's immediate areas...like England, France, Germany etc...

Reply:
You mean like Canada’s expansion into the west? You seem to associate expansionistic with the military-economic objectives of the European powers during the middle age/renaissance period.
American: expansionistic/industrious. I suppose in your definition of expansionistic the US should be included as an expansionary power? As an expansionary power (by your definition), the mind truly boggles, why would the US grant such lenient and forgiving peace treaties to both Japan and Germany. In fact, the US recognizing the importance of democracy, economic and personal freedoms permitted both Germany and Japan unrestricted free access to the US domestic market to foster their economic recover, thereby national recovery at the cost of American jobs. As a super power, the US during its time has been tremendously forgiving and patient, unlike the European powers during their “golden ages”. But I suppose you are also a US basher and do have never taken the time to analyze US foreign policy.

Pompeii:
Just becasue you are Canadian does not in my opinion justify your inclusion into Civ 3 over civs such as the Americans, etc. Fine, the Iriquois civ seems to be Firaxis' way of not offending native American Indians but Canada is an insult to all humanity. I mean, who would ever consider adding Australians to Civ3...this is just as bad (even though I am Australian I would never claim to classify as a world civilisation...at least not yet...maybe in a couple of hundred or thousand years the way we're heading). Just some food for thought

Reply:
I fully Agree!! If you are at all representative of Australian civilization, I see no reason to include the former British penal colony in the game. Why, Canada was a prize European colony that succeeded its founders. Australia? Isn’t it just a former British prison camp that nobody wants anyways.

[muppet]

I think you forgot the culture argument:

From:

CIA Factbook:
Background: A land of vast distances and rich natural resources, Canada became a self-governing dominion in 1867 while retaining ties to the British crown. Economically and technologically the nation has developed in parallel with the US, its neighbor to the south across an unfortified border. Its paramount political problem continues to be the relationship of the province of Quebec, with its French-speaking residents and unique culture, to the remainder of the country

Apparently, the CIA believes that Canada does not have one, but at least TWO cultures. I can't seem to find any cultural references in the same files regarding Australia.

I suppose that since culture and history are intertwined and you have no knowledge of basic historic facts that perhaps you are also lacking in culture. And as I have already agreed that since you may be representative of Australian civilization then perhaps Australian civilization also lacks culture. Yes. This would be consistent with my agreement with you that Australia should perhaps not be included in civiii.

[Stefu]

What the hell's Pompey's point? He's anti-Canadian? How could anyone be anti-Canadian? Canadians are so harmless!

[LotC]

muppet--remember, every time you feed a troll you make the baby jesus cry

[srlumpy]

Canadians kind of deserve a mark on civ3... but not really. Let's ne honest, they were a minor scratch to the fledgling USA and perhaps if they remember that they were or are still mostly british. they still are a mere colony or they call it a confederacy. None-the-less... if some clown is going to make a civ resembling the borg... why not canadians

hmm, the CF-18...

sounds like the F-18...

very intresting

[Soapyfrog]

srlumpy... do you know what confederation means? You don't seem to, since the US is also a confederation of states (at least in theory).

Canadians are no more British than Americans. We are certainly more culturally diverse...

The US are the Borg, my friend! Self-acclaimed! The great melting pot! We will add your distinctiveness too our own, and add you to the collective! THAT is American culture... The Canadian way is more that of the Federation: Allow distinct cultures to flourish and prosper as they will. There is no "Canadian Way", but there most certainly is an "American Way" and it isn't terribly tolerant.

To sum up: US=Borg, Canada=UFP

Lastly, the CF-18 is basically a supercharged F-18 (bigger engines, more flexible role). I won't go deep into the reasons why we use the CF-18 today instead of a homegrown type, but it has to do with a certain project called the "Avro Arrow". Heard of it? Of course not... it was squashed in the late '50s by an American government fearful that it might have to start buying it's advanced interceptors from us...

[TickeBoy]

In my opinion the US shouldn't be a part of Civ3 either! USA is definitely a very important country (just as Canada AND Australia are), but has only been truly important in the last century. Before World War II it was certainly not a superpower and before World War I - well, let's not speak about that. In my opinion the US is not a 'civilization', but rather a 'nation'. That's the case with Canada and Australia too...

[Lumpkin]

It has to be the mountie!

The problem with peacekeepers is that there is nothing uniquely Canadian about peacekeepers. The whole point about the unique unit is that they are unique to that civ. Mounties, on the other hand, just scream Canadiana! Who cares if they were a mounted police force? Basically they were still a fighting unit and god knows there's plenty of stuff already in Civ that isn't historically accurate.

Pompey: Hello??? Its a game!!!! And in any case I think Canada has much to be proud about: it made considerable sacrifices in both world wars, has always managed to maintain a very prosperous and peaceful society and gives the impression of having a populace significantly more civilised than that of America.