MOD: korn's Blitz Mod

[lockstep]

Originally posted by korn469
hehe i had to reload a couple of time because i wasn't trying too hard

I know.

just remember the two save dates ok?

Just look at the attachment.

anyways i'm going to do somemore play testing on that map, but i have found out a couple things one of them is that drafting a unit that requires population only uses 1 pop instead of 2 so this needs balancing

Too bad. At the moment, I don't have any idea how this could be corrected.

on another note, how many more units does everyone think we'll need before all of the niches in the game are filled?

modern worker (either move 2 or treat all terrain as roads and a little more expensive)

I instantly liked this idea.

And now, back to the game ... ahem, test.

[korn469]

hmmm i looked at your game, and all i gotta say is, what happened to the romans psycho boy?

just kidding

anyways here is my report of the civs at 1275 and my save games

______________________________

1275 AD

Aztecs
3 gold
monarchy
strategic resources: iron, horses

Tenochtitlan (100)
8 pop
palace
barracks
granary
library
walls
colosseum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 615/1000 (77)
production: 9/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 18
comm(t/s/c): 6/4/0
garrison: jag warrior, 3 spearmen, pikeman, settler
building a: worker
complete in: 1

Teotihuacan (91)
7 pop
granary
temple
marketplace
library
aqueduct
harbor
forbidden palace
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 465/1000 (90)
production: 9
food surplus: 1
growth in: 26
comm(t/s/c): 9/4/0
garrison: swordsman, horseman, galley, 2 spearmen, jag warrior
building a: barracks
complete in: 2

Tlatelolco (60)
6
barracks
granary
temple
marketplace
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 436/1000
production: 7/2
food surplus: 4
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 6/3/2
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 7

Texcoco (64)
6 pop
barracks
granary
temple
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 371/1000
production: 6/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 5/3/2
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 6

Tlaxcala (66)
6 pop
granary
temple
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 312/1000 (138)
production: 5/2
food surplus: 2
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 6/3/3
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 9

Calixtlahuaca
6 pop
barracks
granary
temple
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 431/1000 (95)
production: 6/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 4/3/1
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 7

Xochicalco (97)
7 pop
library
aqueduct
harbor
the oracle
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 324/1000 (113)
production: 7/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 15
comm(t/s/c): 6/3/1
garrison: 2 spearmen, jag warrior, settler
building a: barracks
complete in: 2

Tlacopan (56)
5 pop
barracks
granary
temple
library
walls
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 282/1000 (144)
production: 8/5
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 3/3/3
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 64

______________________________

Egypt
97 gold
republic
strategic resources: iron

Thebes (investigate cost 48)
6 pop
Palace
Barracks
Colosseum
The Hanging Gardens
luxuries: 5
culture: 7 579/1000 (61)
production: 9
food surplus: 2
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 9/6/1
garrison: 4 pikemen
building a: pikeman
complete in: 3

Memphis (55)
7 pop
Library
Aqueduct
Harbor
luxuries: 5
culture: 2
production: 6/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: 5
comm(t/s/c): 11/10/5
garrison: 3 spearmen and a settler
building a: barracks
complete in: 4

Heliopolis (33)
4 pop
barracks
library
the great library
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 13 622/1000 (30)
production: 7/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: 5
comm(t/s/c): 5/4/2
garrison: settler, 2 pikemen
building a: settler
complete in: 5

Elephantine (47)
6 pop
barracks
library
harbor
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 4 294/1000 (177)
production: 6/4
food surplus: 2
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 5/4/5
garrison: 2 pikemen, swordsman, settler
building a: copernicus obs
complete in: 53

Alexandria (25)
3 pop
barracks
marketplace
library
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 4 296/1000 (176)
production: 6/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 6.3.2
garrison: 2 pikemen
building a: forbidden palace
complete in: 14

Pi-Ramesses (17)
2 pop
library
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 4 268/1000 (183)
production: 4/3
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 2.3.2
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 98

Giza (30)
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: 5
culture: -
production: 2/2
food surplus: 3
growth in: 1
comm(t/s/c): 4.3.7
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 17

Byblos (20)
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 23

El-Amarna (16)
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 6
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/5
garrison: spearman
building a: worker
complete in: 1

______________________________

England
ANARCHY

______________________________

France
38 gold
republic
strategic resource: iron, horses

Paris (48)
5 pop
library
luxuries: 4
culture: 2
production: 7
food surplus: 3
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 4/22/1
garrison: pikeman, 2 spearmen
building a: copernicus obs
complete in: 29

Orleans (53)
5 pop
barracks
forum
luxuries: 4
culture: 2 66/100 (17)
production: 8/2
food surplus: 2
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 2/9/3
garrison: 2 pikemen
building a: settler
complete in: 1

Lyons (45)
pop 5
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 6
food surplus: 3
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 2/7/2
garrison: spearman
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 67

Rheims (30)
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 2
food surplus: 4
growth in: 5
comm(t/s/c): 2/8/2
garrison: settler, spearman, galley
building a: pikeman
complete in: 13

Tours (32)
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 2/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 1
comm(t/s/c): 1/2/1
garrison: pikeman, worker
building a: settler
complete in: 13

Marseilles (37)
3 pop
harbor
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 3
food surplus: 2
growth in: 7
comm(t/s/c): 2/7/0
garrison: pikeman, spearman
building a: barracks
complete in: 22

Chartres (12)
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 17
comm(t/s/c): 0/1/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 44

Avignon (28)
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 3/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 6
comm(t/s/c): 1/2/1
garrison: warrior
building a: pikeman
complete in: 5

______________________________

Rome
47 gold
republic
strategic resources: iron

Rome
12 pop
palace
barracks
marketplace
library
pyramids (obelisk)
the great wall
luxuries: 5
culture: 15 1505/10000 (567)
production: 11/1
food surplus: 8
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 31/21/2
garrison: 4 pikemen
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 13

Veii
6 pop
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 7/1
food surplus: 4
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 7/4/2
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: copernicus's obs
complete in: 25

Antium
2 pop
barracks
marketplace
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 4/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 6
comm(t/s/c): 4/2/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: legionary
complete in: 1

Cumae
6 pop
barracks
marketplace
harbor
forum
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 5 427/1000 (115)
production: 6/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 8
comm(t/s/c): 10/5/2
garrison: galley, 2 pikemen
building a: settler
complete in: 1

Neapolis
3 pop
barracks
harbor
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 2/1
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/1/2
garrison: pikeman
building a: pikeman
complete in: 14

Pompeii
6 pop
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 5/2
food surplus: 2
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 5/3/4
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: forbidden palace
complete in: 13

Pisae
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: 5
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/5
garrison: spearman, settler
building a: legionary
complete in: 22

Ravenna
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/3
garrison: pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 22

Hispalis
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/5
garrison: worker, pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 30

Viroconium
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: harbor
complete in: 56

Lugdunum
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: worker, archer
building a: pikeman
complete in: 27

Lutetia
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1
food surplus: 4
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: worker
complete in: 6

______________________________

1280

England
0 gold
republic
strategic resources: none

London
1 pop
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 2 90/100 (5)
production: 3
food surplus: 2
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 1/4/0
garrison: worker, spearman
building a: library
complete in: 21

York
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 2
food surplus: 2
growth in: 9
comm(t/s/c): 0/2/0
garrison: -
building a: settler
complete in: 18

Nottingham
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 2/1
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 0/2/0
garrison: -
building a: settler
complete in: 23

______________________________

[korn469]

ok i haven't found any more bugs yet

but two things did come to my attention

spy cost need further lowering and culture buildings don't seem to provide enough cultural bang for the buck

as far as spy costs go here is what i have them at

*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 7
*Steal Technology cost 9
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 7
*Initiate Propaganda cost 80
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

and here is what i'm going to change them too

*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 5
*Steal Technology cost 8
*Steal World Map cost 1 (and that is still too high!)
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 5
*Initiate Propaganda cost 65
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

as far as culture buildings go, there are some stat changes in have in mind

here are all of the ancient and middle age that produce culture and their shields per culture point

temple 60 (30)
Colosseum 120
Cathedral 80 (40)
Library 40 (20)
University 66.7 (33.4)
Newspaper 120
Forum 30
Theater 40

so althought the forum is the best thing cultural wise to spend your shields on, is it and the theater powerful enough from a cultural standpoint?

hmmm and that doesn't even take into account the scientific or religious abilities which are listed secondly

hmmm, so i'm thinking of changing the forum to one of the following

moderately powerful: 100/4/1
powerful: 80/4/1
really powerful 60/3/1

i'm not sure which one i'm going to switch it to yet, but it the theater and the musuem will all get an upgrade (at least a slight one)

____________________________

not sure if i mentioned this before, but so far the strangest combat result i've seen is this

a regular (6hp) rifleman (6.8.1) attacks either an elite (12hp) or veteran (9hp) jaguar warrior (1.1.2) and loses with the jag warrior have like 2 or 3 hitpoints left

other than that i haven't seen anything truly outrageous

[lockstep]

I have finished (and won ) my first test game with beta 7. Some quick comments:

• The AI doesn't attack with partisans anymore when at peace. THANK GOD! (And it still knows how to use them in war.)
• Modern Armies work well so far. I even was allowed to build the Heroic Epic after my first modern army had won a battle. (I never bothered to build a 'standard' army.) What I forgot to test: Can an army be upgraded to a modern army a) if it has unit loaded onto it b) if it's still 'empty'?
• Giving air units, and especially bombers, the blitz ability, enables them to do multiple attacks, sometimes without any risk of being damaged. Therefore, if the AI has bombers, you don't have any fighters, and war is declared, you can anticipate that at least two of your cities will be cut off from the road network by bombardment in the first turn. (Yes, I found that out the hard way.) IMO, this is too unbalancing - please drop the blitz ability for bombard units.
• The combination of much higher unit support costs and somewhat higher building maintenance costs are a strain for the treasury. I was never able to keep a positive cash-flow with a science rate of more than 70%. (This may be partly due to the fact that I'm somewhat lazy about tile-improvement, but then ... I was so before beta7 and didn't notice a similar trend then.)
• IMO, tech progress is somewhat too slow (I entered the modern age about 1975), but more suitable than the original tech rate of v1.17f (when combined with the AI's heavy tech trading).
• Wheeled settlers were again responsible for a 'bottled-in' AI civ. The Egyptians, whose starting position was to the west of me, had room for about three or four cities (well, you know this game, korn ) and were nearly cut off from the rest of the continent by a mountain chain. The only way to the unsettled plains of the north was over my territory, and I expelled their settlers whenever they tried to cross it. It was already in the middle age when the Egyptians finally figured out to build a road across the mountain chain. They founded three more cities, but let's just say it was too late for them . I'd rank wheeled settlers as 'AI can't cope with it' and drop this feature from the mod, but it's a borderline case.
• Although I know that the mill (the first production-enhancing building) can't be built in every city, but must have water nearby, it still confuses me in-game. What about allowing mills for every city, making them a prereq for factories and lowering the factory's production bonus to 25%?
• Colonists are still of no use. (IMO, the whole settler pop cost/terrain food production issue needs to be re-examined in later versions of the mod.)

I'll try to comment on cultural buildings stats until tomorrow.

[korn469]

lockstep

i'm getting ready to leave for the day but here is a few quick responces

The AI doesn't attack with partisans anymore when at peace. THANK GOD! (And it still knows how to use them in war.)

Giving air units, and especially bombers, the blitz ability, enables them to do multiple attacks, sometimes without any risk of being damaged

The combination of much higher unit support costs and somewhat higher building maintenance costs are a strain for the treasury

Wheeled settlers were again responsible for a 'bottled-in' AI civ

Colonists are still of no use. (IMO, the whole settler pop cost/terrain food production issue needs to be re-examined in later versions of the mod.)

*they are invisiable now, and not hidden nationality, if this works better i'll leave it like that

*i might lower the movement for air units, but i'm going to leave them with blitz, a turn is a year at least you know
right now bombers and fighters have 3 movement, and stealth bombersfighters plus jet fighters have 4 movement so i might lower them back to 2 and 3

however one of the primary goals of this mod is to upgrade air units because they were too weak, if i'm getting complaints about how powerful they are then it looks like i'm doing something right

*good, it's all about strategic choices

*hmmm and i thought it was working out decently

*colonists the units i added, or colonies that workers build?

i'll have more to say later

[lockstep]

Originally posted by korn469
*they are invisiable now, and not hidden nationality, if this works better i'll leave it like that

Partisans become visible when they attack. What I meant was that the AI used them only when at war with me.

*i might lower the movement for air units, but i'm going to leave them with blitz, a turn is a year at least you know
right now bombers and fighters have 3 movement, and stealth bombersfighters plus jet fighters have 4 movement so i might lower them back to 2 and 3

IIRC, the first fighter I built was able to perform the 'rebase' mission four times a turn.

*colonists the units i added, or colonies that workers build?

The units you added. When colonists become available, there's no land left to found cities.

Two more things I forgot to mention in my last post:

• A despotism worker rate of 1 forces you to think about what improvement is really necessary. This is a vast improvement in gameplay.
• I'm tempted to turn off battle animations because of the everlasting battles caused by a hitpoint scale of 4/6/9/12. I know the reasoning for increasing hitpoints, but again - what about a scale of 3/5/7/9?

Originally posted by lockstep
As far as I know, wonders that were built by another civ won't yield any culture points to you if you capture them.

Any thoughts about the Pyramids/obelisks issue? I really think that the blitz mod - that I generally deem to be the best mod released so far - violates a central design element of Civ3 in that respect: You can't improve your own culture by capturing improvements or wonders.

[candidgamera]

Korn:

Just finished scanning through the entire thread and have been studying the editor as (with the 2/14 1.17 patch) is.

A lot of work - impressive - do you ever sleep?

Thinking about the logic of your comments on page 1, cruise missiles sinking ships:

Do we know that this won't work and/or cause crashes?

In the editor:
Make the Bomber an immobile land unit, with an operational range, appropriate bombing (plan to add recon as well) mission allowed, designate as a foot unit (per your cruise missile comments) - - and viola an air unit that can sink ships. Since its immobile can't load onto a transport, but can rebase to a carrier.

Basis of comments - the editor seems to allow me to check off appropriate boxes.

Or is it the "tactical missile" designation that flipped the switch to make ships sinkable with cruise missiles - if so disregard above - bomber becomes a kamikaze.

[korn469]

candidgamera (i'm responding to you first because you were like verbal in the usual suspects, the man with the plan)

Just finished scanning through the entire thread

wow impressive!

do you ever sleep?

not too much

plus when i edit the blitz mod i listen to powerman5000 tonight the stars revolt drink nesquik, pump myself up and start changing things

Do we know that this won't work and/or cause crashes?

yes i tried i found out about it accidently and confirmed it works ok

In the editor:
Make the Bomber an immobile land unit, with an operational range, appropriate bombing (plan to add recon as well) mission allowed, designate as a foot unit (per your cruise missile comments) - - and viola an air unit that can sink ships. Since its immobile can't load onto a transport, but can rebase to a carrier.

this doesn't work the way that you typed it out (for one thing land units can't load in carriers), but it is close, basically you take a unit turn it into an immobile air unit, give it bombard, RoF, and operational range then enable rebase and bombing, and set it to foot soldier (along with other fighters) and cruise missile then suddenly you have a unit that can sink ships (although it dies after it attacks) and now only fighters can load in aircraft carriers

i had already been thinking of changing carriers to only carry fighters (and bumping down all fighter changes to 6) but you just solidified things in my mind, and i created a small mod that does exactly this so check it out

although even if there was a checkbox that allowed air units to sink ships and another that allowed them to destroy ground units i don't think i would enable that at this point

however i do think i am going to add the fighters only option to carriers and see how that works out

______________________________

Lockstep

Partisans become visible when they attack. What I meant was that the AI used them only when at war with me

there are two values in the editor, one is hidden nationality, these units are visable on the map, but they can attack without triggering a war, the other is invisible, which makes the unit not show up on the map unless attacking or being attacked, but they trigger wars when they do attack

IIRC, the first fighter I built was able to perform the 'rebase' mission four times a turn

i'll check this out, and if it is incorrect i'll fix it

The units you added. When colonists become available, there's no land left to found cities

i think this is most likely dependent on map size, because i have gotten complaints on huge maps that the rate of expansion is far too slow

if this unit proves unworkable, i might just give expansionist civs a nonwheeled 50 shield 3 pop settler unit instead

A despotism worker rate of 1 forces you to think about what improvement is really necessary. This is a vast improvement in gameplay.

awsome! i'm really glad its working out
additionally it slows the game down so that people aren't building the spaceship in 1200 AD

I'm tempted to turn off battle animations because of the everlasting battles caused by a hitpoint scale of 4/6/9/12. I know the reasoning for increasing hitpoints, but again - what about a scale of 3/5/7/9

wouldn't the length of the battles be virtually identical? plus the second set of values takes some of the power away from vet and elite units

Any thoughts about the Pyramids/obelisks issue? I really think that the blitz mod - that I generally deem to be the best mod released so far - violates a central design element of Civ3 in that respect: You can't improve your own culture by capturing improvements or wonders.

well there is a workaround, but i think it's a sub-optimal (as far as doing it in the editor is concerned) way of doing it, but it does meet all of the criteria

first have tthe pyramids grant a certain building in all cities (no the continant or not), make that building require the pyramids to build, then have obelisks cost 10 give 1 culture and either have an upkeep of 1 or 0 and require the building that the pyramids grant...so if a civ ever captured the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks, and therefore the pyramids wouldn't grant culture to a civ that captured them, is this what i should do?

Wheeled settlers were again responsible for a 'bottled-in' AI civ. The Egyptians, whose starting position was to the west of me, had room for about three or four cities (well, you know this game, korn ) and were nearly cut off from the rest of the continent by a mountain chain. The only way to the unsettled plains of the north was over my territory, and I expelled their settlers whenever they tried to cross it. It was already in the middle age when the Egyptians finally figured out to build a road across the mountain chain. They founded three more cities, but let's just say it was too late for them . I'd rank wheeled settlers as 'AI can't cope with it' and drop this feature from the mod, but it's a borderline case.

lockstep did you check out my savegame? the egyptians expanded fairly well considering the terrain they started in, i think that while the AI isn't as proficient with wheeled settlers as the human is, i don't think that wheeled settlers was the Egyptians problem, first i think it was a specific AI preference (that being defensive units) that caused problems for the egyptians, and that it built too many of them, so many that it hurt itself, and i am going to change this

also if you look at the english in my savegame they were doing terribly! i think once again it was the AI preferences, this time settlers being the choice holding them back, that compounded with the barbarian encampments that i am assuming surrounded them from early on and they were just barely holding on for a long time

i'm going to change around the AI settings some to fix this

______________________

i have a few errands to run when i wake up in the morning, but then i'm going to work on the beta7.1 (including a pediaicons!) and i will release it either late sunday night or sometime monday with the changes we've discusseddiscussed

[lockstep]

Originally posted by korn469
wouldn't the length of the battles be virtually identical? plus the second set of values takes some of the power away from vet and elite units

The length of battles should be about 20-25% shorter, which may reduce tedium.

In the original Civ3 (2/3/4/5), a veteran unit has 33% more hitpoints than a regular unit, an elite has 66% more. In blitz 1.06 beta7 (4/6/9/12), the corresponding values are 50%/100%. With my proposal (3/5/7/9), the values would be 40%/80%. So yes, it takes away some power from vets and elites, but IMO Civ3's perceived problem is generally weird combat results and not weak elite units.

well there is a workaround, but i think it's a sub-optimal (as far as doing it in the editor is concerned) way of doing it, but it does meet all of the criteria

first have tthe pyramids grant a certain building in all cities (no the continant or not), make that building require the pyramids to build, then have obelisks cost 10 give 1 culture and either have an upkeep of 1 or 0 and require the building that the pyramids grant...so if a civ ever captured the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks, and therefore the pyramids wouldn't grant culture to a civ that captured them, is this what i should do?

IMO, you should change the pyramids to a culture-only great wonder for the moment and wait for the better editor Firaxis is working on.

lockstep did you check out my savegame? the egyptians expanded fairly well considering the terrain they started in, i think that while the AI isn't as proficient with wheeled settlers as the human is, i don't think that wheeled settlers was the Egyptians problem

I noticed that 'your' egyptians had figured out earlier that they needed to build a road from Thebes to the northeast and across the mountain chain. Obviously, they also founded two cities (El-Amarna and Byblos) by loading settlers onto ships and circumventing the continent. OTOH, 'my' Egyptians didn't figure out anything until it was too late. As I already said, wheeled settlers may be a borderline case for the AI.

i have a few errands to run when i wake up in the morning, but then i'm going to work on the beta7.1 (including a pediaicons!) and i will release it either late sunday night or sometime monday with the changes we've discusseddiscussed

Looking forward to it.

[candidgamera]

Korn:

what about this: give carriers "the foot unit only" label?


Like the idea on fighters only carriers, short step to a modded fighter as naval bomber, naval aviation would feel more realistic if it looked more the same - little silly isn't it seeing b17's flying off carriers now - Jimmy Doolittle would be amazed I'm sure

Jet fighters especially: F14 vs. F18, not a lot of difference in appearance.

[lockstep]

Some thoughts about cultural building stats.

In the original Civ3 v1.17f, there are six city improvements (not counting wonders, small wonders and the palace) that yield culture points per turn: temple (2), colosseum (2), cathedral (3) (the three 'happiness' buildings), library (3), university (4), research lab (2) (the three 'science' buildings). That's 16 culture points per turn for a city that has build all of them. Assuming that the three ancient city improvements (temple, colosseum, library) will be built soon enough to experience a doubling of culture points per turn (which happens after 1000 years), this results in 7 additional points per turn or a total of 23.

Version 1.06 beta7 of the blitz mod adds five city improvements that yield culture. These are: forum (2), theater (4), museum (6) (three 'culture-only' buildings), public school (1) (a fourth 'science building), newspaper (1) (a third 'anti-corruption' building - note that the courthouse and the police station, which also reduce corruption, don't yield any culture). OTOH, the six original 'culture-yielding' buildings now produce 1 culture point less per turn. A city that has built all 11 buildings will yield 24 culture points per turn, with consideration of the age bonus for ancient buildings (including the forum) that's 6 additional points per turn or a total of 30. A city that won't build the three 'culture-only' buildings (forum, theater, museum) will yield 12 culture points per turn or 16 including the age bonus.

There are some things I'd like to see changed in later versions of the blitz mod:

• IMO, it's counter-intuitive that 'science' buildings yield more culture points per turn than 'happiness' buildings (most of them being religious ones). The latter ones should yield more or at least the same culture.
• The research lab of v1.17f and the public school of beta7 should not yield any culture because of two reasons. Realism: From the industrial age onwards, the production of 'expert knowledge' (symbolized by the research lab) and the promotion of general education (symbolized by the public school) are, IMO, fairly separated from art and culture. Gameplay: In the late game, IMO, culture points shouldn't come as a nice side-effect of buildings that the player would want to build anyway. (Because of the initial border expansion which creates contiguous empire borders, culture should be a side effect in the early game.)
• The newspaper shouldn't yield any culture, just like the courthouse and the police station. Realism-wise this may be a borderline case, but so are the culture points of the colosseum, which is an ancient entertainment building and not a 'religious' one.
• The resulting rule would be: All 'happiness' buildings, the ancient/medieval 'science' buildings and the 'culture-only' buildings yield culture points per turn. (IMO, that's also more 'aesthetic' than a bunch of 11 'culture-yielding' buildings, which is about a third of all buildings in v1.06 beta7 of the blitz mod.)
• With regards to korn's opinion that 'culture buildings don't seem to provide enough cultural bang for the buck', I suggest to increase the culture points per turn for the forum, theater and museum by 2 each so that a city that has built them all will produce about 2.5 times the amount of culture compared to a city that has only built the other 'culture-yielding' buildings.

In conclusion, I suggest eight 'culture-yielding' buildings with the following culture points per turn: temple (2), colosseum (2), cathedral (3), library (2), university (3), forum (4), theater (6), museum (8). That's 30 points per turn for a city that has built all of them (40 including the age bonus) and 12 for a city that has skipped the forum, theater and museum (18 including the age bonus).

P.S.: Building costs should be 80 for the forum (20 per culture point), 160 for the theater (like in beta7, but 26.7 per culture point) and 240 for the museum (like in beta7, but 30 per culture point).

P.P.S.: I don't mind if these ideas won't be discussed before the release of beta7.1. There's always a next version.

[korn469]

lockstep

In the original Civ3 (2/3/4/5), a veteran unit has 33% more hitpoints than a regular unit, an elite has 66% more. In blitz 1.06 beta7 (4/6/9/12), the corresponding values are 50%/100%. With my proposal (3/5/7/9), the values would be 40%/80%. So yes, it takes away some power from vets and elites, but IMO Civ3's perceived problem is generally weird combat results and not weak elite units

i am trying to give three combinations for victory in the blitz mod, tech, morale, or numbers (or even better all three ) so high durability vets and elites are a must, i could even go for a 3/5/7/10 system, and i'll consider it for beta7.x or beta8, but the problem is, watching those battles will still grow tiresome because there are no quick animation preferences in civ3 and the animation speed was made for low hitpoint units even then multi-unit battles could take a while, so eventually you'll cut off the animations or have to suffer through it, because the only other option is to go back to civ3 levels which is unacceptable, and there is nothing in the editor that can speed up animations, so even with changing the hitpoints i still think you'll find the battles are too long with animations on

IMO, you should change the pyramids to a culture-only great wonder for the moment and wait for the better editor Firaxis is working on.

i doubt firaxis will give an adequate fix over the options we already have in the next editor patch when it comes to wonder creation and such...mike said his number one priority with the editor was adding units and start locations to the map

so in beta8 i'll implement the fix i described above, and it will appear seemless to the player, they build the pyramids, then they can build obelisks, and if an enemy captures the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks

I noticed that 'your' egyptians had figured out earlier that they needed to build a road from Thebes to the northeast and across the mountain chain. Obviously, they also founded two cities (El-Amarna and Byblos) by loading settlers onto ships and circumventing the continent. OTOH, 'my' Egyptians didn't figure out anything until it was too late. As I already said, wheeled settlers may be a borderline case for the AI.

i know that wheeled settlers slow down the AI in certain starting positions, and might completely bottle it in, but for the most part most civs work out ok, so if one civ has a poor start out of all of the civs everyother game, i wouldn't exactly call that feature fundamentally broken...it also slows down the play, and makes for more natural expansion, but i got to do some checking because someone reported a bug where wheeled units cannot move over hills or forrest in addition to mountains and jungles...if this is the case i will temporarily disable wheeled settlers

IMO, it's counter-intuitive that 'science' buildings yield more culture points per turn than 'happiness' buildings (most of them being religious ones). The latter ones should yield more or at least the same culture.

i'll look over this, and try to get them to produce around the same culture rate per shield

The research lab of v1.17f and the public school of beta7 should not yield any culture because of two reasons. Realism: From the industrial age onwards, the production of 'expert knowledge' (symbolized by the research lab) and the promotion of general education (symbolized by the public school) are, IMO, fairly separated from art and culture. Gameplay: In the late game, IMO, culture points shouldn't come as a nice side-effect of buildings that the player would want to build anyway.

consider them nuked!
that means a modern age culture building is needed but i'll wait to beta8 for that

The newspaper shouldn't yield any culture, just like the courthouse and the police station

see below

The resulting rule would be: All 'happiness' buildings, the ancient/medieval 'science' buildings and the 'culture-only' buildings yield culture points per turn. (IMO, that's also more 'aesthetic' than a bunch of 11 'culture-yielding' buildings, which is about a third of all buildings in v1.06 beta7 of the blitz mod.)

sounds like a good rule, it made need slight modification...ie in adding in the government buildings to that list but at a lower rate like if i doubled the border expansion to 20 that might make it easier to increase and balance the buildings on a shields to culture basis so if the courthouse,, newspaper, and police station generated 1 culture on a 20 scale it would be effectively half a culture point , but i think it is a good place to start

In conclusion, I suggest eight 'culture-yielding' buildings with the following culture points per turn: temple (2), colosseum (2), cathedral (3), library (2), university (3), forum (4), theater (6), museum (8). That's 30 points per turn for a city that has built all of them (40 including the age bonus) and 12 for a city that has skipped the forum, theater and museum (18 including the age bonus).

ok in beta7 here are those buildings

temple 60/1 (60)
colosseum 120/1 (120)
cathedral 160/2 (80)
library 80/2 (40)
university 200/3 (66.67)
forum 60/2 (30)
theater 160/4 (40)
museum 240/6 (40)

ok here's how i'm going to do it in beta7.1 for culture, though i was already planning on changing the forum to 80 shields before i read your post lockstep!

temple 60/1
colosseum 120/2
cathedral 160/2
library 80/1
university 200/3
*forum 80/3
theater 160/6
museum 240/9
palace 100/1
*courthouse 60/-
newspaper 120/-
*police station 180/-
public school 200/-
research lab 240/-

so that means the ancient total in 1.17f is 7 culture points a turn from buildings -->temple (2), library (3), colosseum (2)

in the blitz mod the ancient total in beta7.1 is 7 culture points a turn from buildings -->temple (1), library (1), colosseum (2), forum (3)

the middle ages total in 1.17f is 7 culture points a turn from buildings -->cathedral (3), university (4)

the middle ages total in beta7.1 is 11 culture points a turn from buildings --> cathedral (2), university (3), theater (6)

the industrial age total in 1.17f is 0 culture points a turn from buildings

the industrial age total in beta7.1 is9 culture points a turn from buildings --> museum (9)

the modern age total in 1.17f is 2 culture points a turn from buildings --> research lab (2)

the modern age total in beta7.1 is 0 culture points a turn from buildings

__________________

candidgamera

what about this: give carriers "the foot unit only" label?

that's the only way to make them carry fighters only, so we had the same thought, i just don't think you realized that's what i meant when i said i was going to change carriers earlier

short step to a modded fighter as naval bomber, naval aviation would feel more realistic if it looked more the same

no need for it (except possibily for AI purposes) look at the stats of the jet fighter, (well once i update them of course hehe) and you can see that they represent F/A-18's, tornados, harriers, Mig-27's, as well as the traditional F-14's, F-16's, F-15's, Mig-29's, Su-27's etc.

__________________

since this is going to be beta7.1 i am going to ensure save game capability on it by NOT including new units or buildings, though i am thinking of new things to do

however in beta8 i am going to fix the pyramids as per my comments above, i may add a new unit, and i am going to add in a BRAND NEW cultural small wonder

Victory Arch (think arch de triumph in paris), it will require a military victory by an army, and at least 2 armies, it will cost 400 shields and provide a yet to be determined amount of culture per turns

i'm working on beta7.1 right now

[korn469]

_____________________

beta7.1

Fixes

*correctly set captured units to workers
*correctly set police stations to require a courthouse
*fixed fascism so that it requires upkeep and gives a trade bonus
*research labs no longer cause pollution

Map size Changes

*reset number of civs back to their original civ3 value (4/6/8/12/16)
*changed optimal number of cities to the following 12/16/20/28/36
*changed tech rate to the following 75/115/150/215/280

Balance Changes

*changed each drafted citizen to have a hurry penalty of 30 turns
*changed chariots and war chariots cost to 10
*changed pikemen to 2.3.1
*changed longbowmen to 5.1.1 40 no resources
*Fighter 5.5.2 12[4]6 100 (blitz) {F-15} oil, rubber
*Bomber 0.2.2 10[8]8 120 (blitz) oil, rubber
*Jet Fighter 15.15.3 15[5]8 150 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
*F-15 18.18.3 15[5]8 150 (blitz, radar, precision strike) {Jet Fighter} oil, aluminum
*Stealth Fighter 0.6.3 18[4]8 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium
*Stealth Bomber 0.3.3 20[8]8 300 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium
*Carriers can now only carry fighters, jet fighters, and F-15s (set carriers to transport foot soldiers only, and all of the fighters set to foot soldiers)

Espionage Changes

*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 5
*Steal Technology cost 8
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 5
*Initiate Propaganda cost 65
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

Building Changes

colosseum 120/2/2
library 80/1/1
forum 80/3/1
theater 160/6/2
museum 240/9/4
courthouse 60/0/1 corruption effect
newspaper 120/0/2 corruption effect, resistant to propaganda
police station 180/0/2 corruption effect, reduces war weariness
research lab 240/0/4

Changes to Civs

Egypt: Industrious, Religious
Government Preference: Communism, NONE
2 AG
Workers, Growth, Production, Happiness, Culture

Babylon: Scientific, Religious
Government Preference: Democracy, Communism
2 AG
Growth, Production, Happiness, Science, Culture

Russia: Expansionistic, Scientific
Government Preference: Communism, NONE
4 AG
Naval, Growth, Production, Science, Explore, Culture

China: Militaristic, Industrious
Government Preference: Communism, Democracy
5 AG
Offensive, Workers, Naval, Air, Growth, Production

America: Industrious, Expansionistic
Government Preference: Democracy, Fascism
4 AG
Workers, Naval, Air, Growth, Production, Explore

France: Industrious, Commercial
Government Preference: Democracy, Anarchy
2 AG
Workers, Growth, Production, Wealth, Trade

Persia: Industrious, Scientific
Government Preference: Democracy, None
3 AG
Workers, Growth, Production, Science, Culture

Zulu: Militaristic, Expansionistic
Government Preference: Communism, Democracy
5 AG
Offensive, Naval, Air, Growth, Explore

Iroquois: Expansionistic, Religious
Government Preference: Democracy, Fascism
3 AG
Naval, Growth, Happiness, Explore, Culture

English: Expansionistic, Commercial
Government Preference: Democracy, Communism
3 AG
Workers, Naval, Growth, Production, Wealth, Trade

Changes to resources

*all disappearance rates set to 900
_____________________


i'll update the main readme soon...but the file is up
enjoy!

[lockstep]

Great work, especially the updated civilopedia!

The only discrepancy to our latest discussion I've noticed so far is that the public school (unlike the newspaper and research lab) still yields culture. I don't know if this is intended.

Regarding tech rates, you chose 75/115/150/215/280 rather than my suggestion of 90/120/150/210/280. That's no big difference, anyway IMO the tech rates scale should be an exact multiple of the no. of optimal cities scale, which now is 12/16/20/28/36. (BTW, this rule was observed in Civ3 v1.07f.)

I'm going to start a beta7.1 test game tomorrow. Moreover, I'll try to comment on the additional buildings (exempt 'culture-only' ones ) and to building maintenance costs in general.

[TechWins]

Yes, I agree with Lockstep, Korn, you did a fantastic job. I couldn't believe how well updated the civilopedia is.

Well, I finally got to play my first game with any version of beta7, or for that matter even patch1.17f. I'm in the year 1400 sumpin, and I am doing terrible, at least compared to past games. . .

I just now entered the Middle Ages! There a couple of reasons for this, though:

1) On started out on a small continent only with the Japanese.
2) Around 1500bc I declared war on them and eventually destroyed them by 100ad (not exact dates).
3) The war took a very long time, and I'll specify why later.
4) Once I had defeated the Japanese I had the whole continent to myself, or so I thought.
5) For about 1000 years I had to deal with the barbarians, and they are a ***** to say the least. That swordsmen and knight combination is nearly impossible to defeat with minimal technology. I have a proposal for this that I'll state later on.

The lack of Civs around me stopped me from being able to trade techs, which is one of the big source for gaining technologies in the game. The small continent didn't allow me to use my expansionist trait (I was the Americans, btw) very much, so that trait was basically useless. Me going into war made me spend a lot of my time (not being able to expand much during the war time) and money (too many units) towards other things, not allowing me to increase my science rate. Having to deal with the barbarians was a war in itself; probably more costly than my war with the Japanese. This situation is not neccasarily an occurrence because of poor rules or anything, but it is a bit extreme and should have a few work arounds. Btw, I only had barbarians on roaming and that was the hardest fight against barbarians I've ever had in any game of Civ2 or Civ3 I've played.

*Regarding the whole barbarian situation:

Make barbarians just a little bit less of a deterrent. Instead of using the knight and swordsmen combo use a different combo. That combo should be a unit that is 2.1.2 {invisible} and a swordsmen. Also, the Privateer may be too powerful, considering how early Barbarians get to use this unit, however, I haven't got to fully notice this yet. This still keeps barbarians really powerful, but it wouldn't be near impossible to beat them, more of a feasible task.

*Some solutions to help out the whole tech advancing situation:

1) Give more technologies prerequisites, because the more preres there are the less trading that can take place. Let me explain my reasoning on this with an example: There are ten techs each labeled a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, and j. With j requiring g and i requring e. One Civ has researched a, e, j, c, and g and another Civ has researched d, b, f, a, e, and c.

a - e - j
b - f
c - g - h
d - i

If those two Civs tried to trade with each other not one tech would be able to be traded.

If that tech tree iwere to be completely linear (meaning no 'outside' prereqs)(j not requring g and i not requiring e) then here are the possible trade sets:

j for d
g for d
j for b
g for b

That would put each Civ at equal terms, meaning less diversity between the two Civs and a speedier advancement through the tech tree. With the extra prereqa there is less trading (slower tech advancement) and Civ's with different techs (more diversity). I realize that wasn't a prime example, but I hope you see my point.

2) Lower the the max research limit to 48 (currently 50) and lower the min time it takes to research to 1 (currently 2, IIRC).

3) Lessen the cost for all of the techs by about 5%. (just a thought)

*The outrigger should have it's movement decreased to 1. I'm not sure if you noticed this or not but when you select to build the outrigger it shows up as a stealth bomber in your city screen. It doesn't show this icon in the list of things to build but after you decide to build the outrigger, in the large box showing what you are currently building it shows the stealth bomber. I hope I was able to explain that clearly; I thought I took a screenshot of it, but I guess I didn't.

*Chariots are now much more useful with their low cost.

*I know this isn't brand new, but I like the two harbor building requirement you gave to the lighthouse.

Well, even though, I had a lot to say I still think the changes made to beta7/beta7.1 (plus patch v1.17f's changes) have made the game really fun. That's the first time I can say that for Civ3; before I could only say that game is pretty fun, but now the game is really fun. So thanks, Korn, for putting all that hardwork into Civ3 to finally make it a "really fun" game.