MOD: korn's Blitz Mod

[Toasty]

Just wondering, the attatchement file only appears as 'file'. How do I use your mod?

[korn469]

Toasty

it says file? hmmm strange, on this server it usually has been calling all downloads just attachment without an extention

if you rename it from file to like blitz.zip it should open up for you if, not please post here and tell me

but anyways, last night before i went to bed i really started thinking of reasons why late game tedium exists and things we could do to fix it

today i came up with an idea, and that is to change all land offense and defense units starting with the discovery of gunpowder to cost at least one pop point

while although it won't be correct historical on a percentage scale, it should make the game behave in a more historical fashion

i feel that air units and naval units should cost about 10% more because of this change, but land bombard units shouldn't change price, and this will make them more attractive to build


because of this look for beta6 in a few hours, i know i am rapidly changing but, i felt this idea at leasts need full blown testing, it might not pan out but i want to give it a shot

also i am going to change the early gunpowder units slightly

musketman, rifleman, and infantry are all getting an attack rating increase to make them more well rounded

comments? i will be checking the thread while i edit the civ3mod.bic so please post

EDIT: Beta 6 is out, a link to download it is on the first page, enjoy!

As always all feedback is appreciated

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Late Game Tedium

Without reading all of the above, late game tedium exists beacuse:

1. There in no - one more turn feeling
* too many units (stacking would help)
* too many workers (better automation would help) - but it works for me anyway, if you are too good for the rest it doesn't really matter.
* too predictable
** if you can build enough units you will run over them eventually - that is fun just has to be made faster
** if you play peacefully you just have to make sure to have enough shields and fill in a 'recipe' build queue - that is OK just has to be made more automated. (insert worker automation) + ability to build good FORTRESSES (perhaps with civ II style ZOC to protect your border on time and the enemy cannot just easily roam accross your territory.) ( At least you would have the ability do protect yourself in that way)

2. Not enough diversified tech to discover, too little units, buildings, governments too.

3. The governments are not different enough (you can choose communism for war, (or fascism) or democracy for everything else) we could have some late game choice too, I think that there should be around 2 gov per age coming in the late stages of the age that have distinct attributes and advantages. (but the gov. tab in the editor might be too short with options for this one)

4. too slow to conquer once you have started to do it - should shorten the time for it (movement until you fight - enable roads in the enemy territory for starters), RR as it is helps too, as well as blitz ability.

5 Armies and fighting in general - * CTP style armies are much less tedious to menage and their combination of Bombard/ infantry/ flanking units idea was great and provides for fun way to fight.
To implement it here perhaps you should be able to assign that the first unit attacking in an army should be the bombnard units and than the flanking ones and only than the defensive ones but there is probably no way to do this. (but you can compensate with the style - build three armies of three units one with artillery , one with tanks, and one with mech inf. and than attack as you please.

*I think that the ability to attack the land units and destroy them with airplanes (fighters)/ ships is essential to make the units more useful and that eliminates the need to sweep after the fight.


Therefore what you would have after this changes:

Good beginning and the decent middle (perhaps a few tech changed and units/ buildings / goivernments added for better diversity). And when the end comes if you are peaceful you could just protect your borders with fortresses/ airplanes/ ships and not move until you are attacked workers would be good automated and you would quickly skip the turns while chasing the space victory or diplomatic one etc....

If you are a wargamer instead you woulkd have to naturally build up the army (shipa and airplanes would be useful too) protect the borders if you want or not. Stack up the units in the armies and go (no annoying slow movement in the enemy teritorry) and one last thing the cities defecting even if they have more than three iuntis in the city. that shoiuld be disabled too. Perhaps if you leave the city empty it shopuld defect like in 90 % of the cases. One unit 60% two units 30 % and three units 0 % . That makes sense.

Here it goes.... you wouyld be able to conquer quickly or the defender would beat you quickly and a lot of the late gsame tedium would dissapear coupled with more interesting tech to discover, a few interesting units and buioldings more ( a few I think not more than 5 just less, of each per two last ages) and two more governments.

That's it for now

[Spaced Cowboy]

Comments on cav in army.

Perhaps the army was allowed to attack twice because the first attack did not lead to a conclusion, that is, the unit retreated which does not complete the attack sequence (ie promotions, one unit dies). Just a thought! It would be easy to try this with one cav. Probably no one has since you're not likely to attack with a 1 hit point cav after it retreats.

[korn469]

OneFootInTheGrave

just a few comments

* too many units (stacking would help)

armies are much cheaper, its easier to build the military academy, and additionally armies can hold up to five units, plus you can have twice as many armies in my mod as in normal civ3

* too many workers (better automation would help) - but it works for me anyway, if you are too good for the rest it doesn't really matter.
* too predictable

well there is nothing i can do about worker automation, however i'm trying to make it less predictable

** if you can build enough units you will run over them eventually - that is fun just has to be made faster
** if you play peacefully you just have to make sure to have enough shields and fill in a 'recipe' build queue - that is OK just has to be made more automated. (insert worker automation) + ability to build good FORTRESSES (perhaps with civ II style ZOC to protect your border on time and the enemy cannot just easily roam accross your territory.)

combat is hopefully more fun, and fotresses are MUCH cheaper, it cost 6 turns of terraforming compared to 16 in normal civ, so a regular civ if they are in democracy and have replaceable parts can build a fortress in one turn

2. Not enough diversified tech to discover, too little units, buildings, governments too.

i added new buildings and i will add a few new tech and units at a later date

3. The governments are not different enough (you can choose communism for war, (or fascism) or democracy for everything else) we could have some late game choice too, I think that there should be around 2 gov per age coming in the late stages of the age that have distinct attributes and advantages. (but the gov. tab in the editor might be too short with options for this one)

you're right, there aren't enough options in the government tab to really make a difference

4. too slow to conquer once you have started to do it - should shorten the time for it (movement until you fight - enable roads in the enemy territory for starters), RR as it is helps too, as well as blitz ability.

roads can't be enabled in the editor, so more movement points is the only option

5 Armies and fighting in general - * CTP style armies are much less tedious to menage and their combination of Bombard/ infantry/ flanking units idea was great and provides for fun way to fight.
To implement it here perhaps you should be able to assign that the first unit attacking in an army should be the bombnard units and than the flanking ones and only than the defensive ones but there is probably no way to do this. (but you can compensate with the style - build three armies of three units one with artillery , one with tanks, and one with mech inf. and than attack as you please.

can't be done in the editor

*I think that the ability to attack the land units and destroy them with airplanes (fighters)/ ships is essential to make the units more useful and that eliminates the need to sweep after the fight.

not only can this not be done in the editor (the editor is pretty, and easy to use but not powerful at all) but i disgree with airplanes completely destroying units...if you have ever played SMAC then you would get the chop and drop strat, where all you needed were airplanes and paratroopers, it wasn't fun at all...plus by doubling hitpoints, a 1hp unit is virtually defenseless

Therefore what you would have after this changes:

Good beginning and the decent middle (perhaps a few tech changed and units/ buildings / goivernments added for better diversity). And when the end comes if you are peaceful you could just protect your borders with fortresses/ airplanes/ ships and not move until you are attacked workers would be good automated and you would quickly skip the turns while chasing the space victory or diplomatic one etc....

If you are a wargamer instead you woulkd have to naturally build up the army (shipa and airplanes would be useful too) protect the borders if you want or not. Stack up the units in the armies and go (no annoying slow movement in the enemy teritorry) and one last thing the cities defecting even if they have more than three iuntis in the city. that shoiuld be disabled too. Perhaps if you leave the city empty it shopuld defect like in 90 % of the cases. One unit 60% two units 30 % and three units 0 % . That makes sense.

Here it goes.... you wouyld be able to conquer quickly or the defender would beat you quickly and a lot of the late gsame tedium would dissapear coupled with more interesting tech to discover, a few interesting units and buioldings more ( a few I think not more than 5 just less, of each per two last ages) and two more governments.

That's it for now

well the editor constrains me greatly, but i am trying to achieve the goals you have outlined

btw have you tried out beta6 yet? if so what do you think?

RPMisCOOL

Comments on cav in army.

Perhaps the army was allowed to attack twice because the first attack did not lead to a conclusion, that is, the unit retreated which does not complete the attack sequence (ie promotions, one unit dies). Just a thought! It would be easy to try this with one cav. Probably no one has since you're not likely to attack with a 1 hit point cav after it retreats.

here is what happened, there was a3 unit full movement (3) full hitpoint cav army beside three riflemen, the cav army attacked using one movement point, the first unit in the army had to break off but the attack continued, however that one unit breaking off cost the army another movement point, then the second cav unit in the army attacked and killed the first rifleman, then the cav army still had the option of attacking because the army conferred blitz on it

[Spaced Cowboy]

korn,

Ok, that blows my theory. Guess I didn't have the whole story straight. I'm going to give your mod a try even though it looks like you've had people experiencing a few crashes. Any idea if it is just the regular Civ3 crashes or due to your mod?

[hbavatar]

korn, just downloaded and tried the mod. I thinks its great. One of my major problems with the game is the expansion mode, and by creating a three population settler, you change the expansion rate greatly.

A couple of questions...

1) Are descriptions possible? It doesn't seem so, but keeping all the changes in my mind it tough, and it would be nice to be able to edit the Civilopedia to incorporate the new changes. Probably very difficult. We need a TeamCiv to create nice little tools for us.

2) Is there a reason warriors stayed 1/1/1 when everything else doubled?

Otherwise, I thinks its great. I look forward to some new updates, especially with the new ship. I think that idea is a winner.

Edit:

I took a look at the civilopedia text, which is pretty straightforward to use. I might suggest just searching for important game concepts, like the Wonders, the Units, the Governments, and changing the information. A lot of the descriptions don't need changing, but it seems to me that the ones where you might want to refresh your memory.

Although, I'm sure you are a busy man, and this isn't exactly the most pertinent thing for a good mod, but fundamental, in my opinion, for a great mod.

[korn469]

RPMisCOOL

Any idea if it is just the regular Civ3 crashes or due to your mod?

well there are three types of crashes

1) crashes caused irectly by the mod because of certain variables changes, these happen everytime and once you actually figure out what causes the crash its easy to fix, my mod has had some of these but i think beta6 is fairly free of them

2) crashes caused by the mod amplifying instabilities in the civ3 code, these are hard to detect because they usually happen somewhat randomly and they can be hard to fix, i'm unsure if beta6 has any of them

3) crashed that are completely unexplained and are most probably just civ3 crashed, my mod should have about as many of these as civ3

unless i introduced a number of type 2 crashes then my mod should be about as stable as civ3

that is part of the reason why i am asking for all of the feedback possible

hbavatar

Although, I'm sure you are a busy man, and this isn't exactly the most pertinent thing for a good mod, but fundamental, in my opinion, for a great mod

i agree with you completely, and in previous versions of my mod i have had varying degrees of success in matching the civilopedia up with the changes, iirc either v1.02 or v1.03 had a completely compliant civilopedia, and v1.06 when it is finally ready will include this as well

however the civilopedia is fairly low on my list of priorities right now, which are as follows:

1) Change and balance game concepts to increase overall enjoyment from playing Civ3

2) Fix all bugs my Mod introduces

3) Match the units_32.pcx, the Civilopedia, and the pedia icons up

4) Release the finished mod and actually play a few games for fun

as to why i changed all of the other units stats but warriors there were reasons, but lately i am begining to think that dividing all of the stats but warriors would be better because it is simpler that way, and although i don't know for sure i think many here would perfer it like that

so what do you playtesters think?

Should i leave attack and defense at their current levels, or should i divide attack and defense rates by 2 so they would be closer to the original civ3 values?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well I haven't played it for a while, it was just a little brainstorm.

A quick tought of how could we make the end game run better. (even though things like CTP style combat will be hardly ever possible)

What I can see that almost all aspects that could have been bettered are made better already.

I haven't tried settlers with 3 pop points, but I'd say that makes sense and will try it very soon.

I have to playtest, but I would leave attack and defense as it is -at least leave a version like that somewhere where interested ones (like me) can download.

on the airplanes and bombardment... that is true what you say, but lately they can almost singlehandedly win wars as well as there is no way to kill many stacked units in one place straight in the game.

Once I had more than 30 enemy calvary on one place and had to bring tank after tank to that same place just to kill them all. (and they often stack up these days ) If I had a fighter with 10 MP and blitz (desn't have to have very strong attack strenght), that would make it probably 4-5 airplanes as opposed to 15-20 tanks and other units like infantry etc to kill them all. (reduces late game tedium) but impossible for now...

overall sounds great, changes that I would want I will try it (perhaps even tonight if I manage ) and give you feedback.

So the ball is on Firaxis, if nothing else than on : roads in enemy territory, airplane/ship civ II option, fortress civ II option (or better to say ZOC), governments etc...

just a say on ZOC, yes you have changed the fortresses early on on my suggestion (thanks) to be much cheaper which definitley makes it better, but the bombard ability is very close to nothing (obviously it is not up to you , but Firaxis). In Civ II it was actually able to defend a bigger part of territory and the enemy had to take it out before they invade you (if you had a couple of them making a "wall" ) but they did not have to be next to each other but every 2nd square (civ II ZOC), and if the squares were lined up vertically (or on the diagonal of that trapezoid you know what...) you could cover quite a lot of territory with three four of them and close a passage or make a front. While now the enemy just passes aside loses 2-3 HP's in an army and who cares. defensive units in the fortress stay behind. Why would they even bother attacking a fortress with 50% up on the defensive value when they can just pass. That addition could cut on others moving around your territory too if you don't want them like settlers, workers going around etc....

[korn469]

OneFootInTheGrave

Well I haven't played it for a while, it was just a little brainstorm.
A quick tought of how could we make the end game run better. (even though things like CTP style combat will be hardly ever possible)
What I can see that almost all aspects that could have been bettered are made better already.
I haven't tried settlers with 3 pop points, but I'd say that makes sense and will try it very soon.

sounds cool to me

Once I had more than 30 enemy calvary on one place and had to bring tank after tank to that same place just to kill them all. (and they often stack up these days ) If I had a fighter with 10 MP and blitz (desn't have to have very strong attack strenght), that would make it probably 4-5 airplanes as opposed to 15-20 tanks and other units like infantry etc to kill them all. (reduces late game tedium) but impossible for now

well i took my advice and i divided all of the stats by two and did some rounding so they more closer to Civ3's stats

however since i was going to increase the cost of airpower anyways i decided that you were right and in my version i bumped them up some, so here are their current stats on my civ3mod.bic (it is ahead of beta6) in the form a.d.m Bmbstr[RoF]Oprng cost resources

Fighter: 6.5.3 8[4]6 100 oil, rubber (blitz)
Bomber: 0.3.3 12[8]8 120 oil, rubber (blitz)
Jet Fighter: 12.10.4 12[6]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz)
F-15: 12.10.4 15[8]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz, radar)
Stealth Fighter: 0.4.4 16[6]8 150 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth)
Stealth Bomber: 0.2.4 18[10]8 300 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth)

anyways with those changes, ten fighters would be able to maul a stack of 30 Cavalry, and eight of the modern era air units should be able to maim that stack.

just a say on ZOC, yes you have changed the fortresses early on on my suggestion (thanks) to be much cheaper which definitley makes it better, but the bombard ability is very close to nothing (obviously it is not up to you , but Firaxis). In Civ II it was actually able to defend a bigger part of territory and the enemy had to take it out before they invade you (if you had a couple of them making a "wall" ) but they did not have to be next to each other but every 2nd square (civ II ZOC), and if the squares were lined up vertically (or on the diagonal of that trapezoid you know what...) you could cover quite a lot of territory with three four of them and close a passage or make a front. While now the enemy just passes aside loses 2-3 HP's in an army and who cares. defensive units in the fortress stay behind. Why would they even bother attacking a fortress with 50% up on the defensive value when they can just pass. That could cut on others moving areound your territory and ytou don't want them like settlers, workers going around etc

hmmm...this gives me an idea, it wouldn't be a fortress per se, but it could behave like a civ2 fortress (if ZOC works like in civ2, or does zoc just mean free shot?) but create a unit called a landmine for example, give it 0.0.1 stats and make it immoble but give it zoc, also make it cheap like 10 shields, and make it so that workers could carry them so that a landmine stacked with a in a fort would give you civ2 like fortresses

how does that sound?

EDIT:

ARRRG! it still crashes on me everytime i select fuedalism! i guess i need to reinstall the game and recreate the civ3mod.bic, for some reason that seems to help

also i have decided to change food consumption to 3 and change food values to balance this...this will allow cities to die from starvation (and it doesn't appear to crash the game)

[OneFootInTheGrave]

however since i was going to increase the cost of airpower anyways i decided that you were right and in my version i bumped them up some, so here are their current stats on my civ3mod.bic (it is ahead of beta6) in the form a.d.m Bmbstr[RoF]Oprng cost resources

Fighter: 6.5.3 8[4]6 100 oil, rubber (blitz)
Bomber: 0.3.3 12[8]8 120 oil, rubber (blitz)
Jet Fighter: 12.10.4 12[6]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz)
F-15: 12.10.4 15[8]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz, radar)
Stealth Fighter: 0.4.4 16[6]8 150 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth)
Stealth Bomber: 0.2.4 18[10]8 300 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth)

anyways with those changes, ten fighters would be able to maul a stack of 30 Cavalry, and eight of the modern era air units should be able to maim that stack.

I will try it now and tell you what I think...

hmmm...this gives me an idea, it wouldn't be a fortress per se, but it could behave like a civ2 fortress (if ZOC works like in civ2, or does zoc just mean free shot?) but create a unit called a landmine for example, give it 0.0.1 stats and make it immoble but give it zoc, also make it cheap like 10 shields, and make it so that workers could carry them so that a landmine stacked with a in a fort would give you civ2 like fortresses

how does that sound?

That sounds BRILLIANT

This would give purpose to the fortress and to protection of the borders (which I would really like if I am going for a peaceful win (or need to close a passage). I don't know that Civ II style ZOC can be assigned to a unit? (cannot move in an adjectant square-has to kill if it wants to pass)

They could come at infantry time... hmm what about middle ages, fortresses served than to a similar purpose, perhaps this kind of unit but maybe make it like an improvement (the best would be ability). Anyway if it can only be a unit - it should be somewhat abstract but I feel that this idea will certainly add to good gameplay.

[hbavatar]

First of all, I like the idea of bringing the stats back down, but keep your changes. The point of it all, as I understand and agree with, is to make combat a little mor eregular. One of the more frustrating elements of game at this point is the irregularity of military victories. My tanks losing to rifleman, etc. By increasing the number of hit points, it would appear that you are giving the stats longer to take affect. Over a long period of time, or more chances, a statistically better unit should win. That leads to more regularity, and the meaning of a spearman or samurai killing a tank goes up. I mean really, if a samurai took out a tank, that would be a big deal. So, I say bring them down, but keep the hit points up.

A comment on settlers, which I wanted to bring up... It would seem that if you are going to make them wheeled, and thereby limit their terrain options, you should increase their movement rate, such that they go where they can faster. With the three pop points and higher but limited movement, you greatly change the expansion process. The borders will look very different from the normal game, and controlling large stretches of mountains, and thereby resources becomes much harder. Introducing the ship will make a big difference too.

I like the mines, if they are possible. ZOC is tricky, and mainly meaningless. Being able to keep troops out, or funnel them into particularly tough areas would be a nice change from the current form of defense.

The new buildings are nice, although icons would be a neat touch, but not very important. I guess I tend to think about the finishing touches first.

Anyway, its going great so far.

[korn469]

hbavatar

what i meant was keep HPs the same but divide attack and defense by 2, and in fact i've already done this

It would seem that if you are going to make them wheeled, and thereby limit their terrain options, you should increase their movement rate, such that they go where they can faster. With the three pop points and higher but limited movement, you greatly change the expansion process. The borders will look very different from the normal game, and controlling large stretches of mountains, and thereby resources becomes much harder. Introducing the ship will make a big difference too.

all of the changes to settlers was in order to delay expansion somewhat, and to actually have a real age of colonization around mid game when the colonist appears

I like the mines, if they are possible. ZOC is tricky, and mainly meaningless. Being able to keep troops out, or funnel them into particularly tough areas would be a nice change from the current form of defense.

i'm working on it and if it is possible i'll add it

The new buildings are nice, although icons would be a neat touch, but not very important. I guess I tend to think about the finishing touches first.

i'll get around to this hopefully sooner rather than later :d

i'm glad you are enjoying it, same goes for you OneFootInTheGrave

[hbavatar]

Originally posted by korn469
hbavatar

all of the changes to settlers was in order to delay expansion somewhat, and to actually have a real age of colonization around mid game when the colonist appears

Okay, but in the game I just played, the world has basically been colonized before anyone discovered navigation. I guess it would be worth it to consider the world type you are playing under. I use thick continents, which generally leads to few islands. In an island heavy game, I think you are right about the Settler's difference, but in a island free game, they don't do much.

I think the advantage to having very mobile settlers is that the initial expansion will settle down, making the explosion of colonization much more meaningful. By having people settled and ready, there will truly be a race to expand when that time comes around. There are pros and cons, but that's the way I see it.

Another question, is there any advantage to building granaries after building the Pyramids? I'm sure I could find that somewhere.

Ohh, and one more thing. In the art folder's is the splash window that pops up when you start the game. When you open it, you could simply write in that the game has been modified, like this:

Korn's Blitz Modification v.xxx

It would be a nice professional addition.

[korn469]

Another question, is there any advantage to building granaries after building the Pyramids? I'm sure I could find that somewhere.

pyramids no longer put a granary in each city, instead it gives each city on the continant +1 culture in a round about way

Ohh, and one more thing. In the art folder's is the splash window that pops up when you start the game. When you open it, you could simply write in that the game has been modified, like this:

Korn's Blitz Modification v.xxx

great idea!!!