MOD: The BALANCER

[Elucidus]

Oh yeah, just had the computer agree to give me everything it had, in exchange for peace. 37 Gold, maps, and all of its remaining cities (two) except its capitol of course. Didn't think it would work, but I guess for survival.

[korn469]

Elucidus

well there is nothing I hate worse than seeing every coastal city governor build privateers in the late game, when privateers in civ3 are useless even in their era, until there is an obsolete setting in the editor then i would rather have units upgrade than to see old crappy units in the build queue

one other thing...u think that cavalry (6.3.3) should really upgrade to riflemen (4.6.1)? i thought that tanks would certainly be the thing cav units would upgrade to

one other question, does anyone know the upgrade formula for determining cost?

[Harlan]

Korn,
Thanks for the explanation - I didn't realize that was the only way to take a unit out of the build queue. That's wierd! We need the ordinary obsoletion by techs reintroduced to the game.

By the way,
I wrote this earlier today in another thread - hope you want to include some of these ideas:



Hi,
I've played Civ3 a whopping one time, but already there are some things I'd like to see changed. Since I'm too lazy to make a mod myself, I'm hoping someone else will like these ideas, and want to incorporate them.

1. I see the need for two new strategic resources. First is Tin. Why Tin, you ask? In the same way that Saltpeter is the limiting feature in the making of gunpowder, tin was the limiting factor in the making of bronze. In history people traded far and wide to get tin - for instance mediterranean powers going thousands of miles into uncivilized lands to trade with tribal people in southern England for tin. Tin would be very common since one doesn't want to trip up civs too much early. It would be needed for some bronze age units.

2. Second needed strategic resource: Timber. In ancient times, not all civs could build navies - only civs with access to very long and broad timber could build ships. Compare for instance Phoenicia which became a huge naval power because of their forests, and Egypt, which had to hire out mercanaries for virtually all their naval needs cos they had no forests at all. All ships up to Ironclad would need this.

3. Luxury resources should occasionally come later with certain technologies, and should disappear over time even more than strategic resources do. Think about it. People's tastes in luxuries changed greatly over time. Silks were the end all be all luxury for a while in ancient times, but now are no big deal. Spices used to be incredibly important to keep food from rotting on long voyages, but died out in importance with refrigeration and so forth. There should be some modern luxuries in the game as the old ones die out - tobacco, opium, coffee, exotic fruits, and so forth.

What would be the impact on gameplay? You'd have to be on your toes more to keep your civ happy. The trade situation would be more fluid.

4. Naval units need to move faster!

5. After playing my first game with numerous elite units involved in battles and not a single leader created, I seriously think the odds of leader creation need to be reduced (even without any wonder help) from about 1/16 to 1/12.

6. A cool thing would be to have more wonders and small wonders, but use the government type limitation much, much more often. Just about every wonder could only be built by one or another type of government. Then you could have identical or very similar wonders for different government types. For instance, a modern happiness wonder for a communist government would be different than the one built by democracies or fascists.

One nice thing about this is there would be less competition for the same wonder. In the game I played, there was far too much of this. All civs were close in the tech race, so when a tech with a new wonder was discovered, it would be just about the only one available, and every civ would go for it. To compensate this lack of competition, make wonders more expensive so you really need to want it to get it, or more expiration limits.

This would make the choosing of a government type much more of an important type. It also would promote more on the fly decision making. Rather than always follow the same government path, it would be more effective to take the path less chosen. All the other civs are Republics but no one is Communist? Go Communist and get all the wonders for yourself.

7. The improvements making naval and air units veterans should be decoupled from the Harbor and Airport improvements. These are useful enough without creating veteran status. These should be separate improvements - perhaps Naval Academy or Flight School off the top of my head.

8. More bonus resources - six types is so weak.

More ideas later.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Elucidus
Korn,
I agree with you to a point.
Swordsmen, Longbowmen, and Cavalry, I think, should upgrade to Riflemen in my opinion. As it is merely arming them with different weapons. Frigates and ironclads, however, should not be able to upgrade. I thought about this, and I think there should very well be a way to obsolete these units, but since there isn't I understand your reasoning.
I just couldn't rationalize it and therefore decided to take that out.

I strongly agree with this too. And it brings up a good question. At what point does the production represent more of the weapon/ship/vehicle than the training of the unit?

In my opinion...

Swordsmen & Longbowmen should upgrade to Riflemen.

Cavalry should not be changed into Riflemen since it has a higher attack than Riflemen!

Cavalry shouldn't upgrade to Tanks & Ironclads shouldn't be able to upgrade to Destroyers because the production cost is significantly higher than a mere rifle. $20 is too cheap for a new tank or new destroyer.

Although I understand Korn changing his game if he wants.

[Yaga]

Upgrades...

First, I agree with the above that Cav *shouldn't* upgrade to tanks - taking a bunch of guys who're used to riding on horseback and tossing them into metal contraptions isn't nec. going to work...

I for one feel that Cav should, in the future, upgrade to Air Cav. This is, afterall, what America did in the Vietnam Era. Until then, I'll keep my horsies.

--

Second, Re: Fascism. I agree with the substance, if not the sardonic tone of the long post above. Fascism was a viable mid-industrial age government, which many countries toyed with post-Monarchy. While by no means praising the system, I'll point out that rascism is not a de facto quality of Fascism, though do agree that it is often a part of the Nationalistic Chauvinism:

Fas·cism (noun)
A system of government marked by centralization of authority
under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls,
suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

I'll also hop on my soapbox for a moment, and point out that many modern governments also have a number of 'fascist' qualities, especially in terms of 'centralized authority' and 'strict socioechonomic controls.' If you disagree, just look around to "democratic" countries today where, in the grips of fear of Terrorism, there's talk of National ID cards, ("Your papers, please") the widening police powers of the FBI (over 1000 foreign nationals and Americans of middle eastern descent have been detained since 9/11/01, many without being charged for anything, many held w/o bail, and some have not even had their names released, their lawyers receving gag orders to not discuss *anything* about their case, including their names or where they are held. Also, the rules on wiretaps have been changed such that they no longer need as much evidence to obtain a wiretap, nor do they need to inform someone that they're being wiretapped until 90 days *after* they *stop* wiretapping) and the powers of the police in the UK (Where Sys Admins may be federalized, and the police have the power to tap any computer and/or internet service account, and it's illegal for the ISP to tell the person that every bit of information is being collected...) [Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now...send flames to /dev/null, please]

--

Third, and most importantly, I wanted to give props to Monkspider: I'm enjoying much your mod immensely, and have some suggestions for the next iteration (playing 1.32 presently)

- Tone down the culture from Sgt. Pepper's. 25 seems a little high. Love the Beatles, but there's no way they're twice the cultural influence of Shakespeare.

- The Dino Park seems a little too powerful; I'd remove the science portion.

- Make Radio Artillery marginally more powerful than normal Artillery

- Change "Universal Equality" to some other name; it's too similar to "Universal Sufferage," IMHO, even though I can't think of a better one...

- Change Universal Sufferage to a Small Wonder, built only by representative gov'ts, (Republic and Democracy)

- Any way to have an exponential increase in naval movement in Industial and then again in Modern? Considering that Railroads give you unlimited movement per turn, it seems silly that you can move a unit from one end of a coastline to another in one turn, yet is can take four or five turns to move a destroyer a similar distance. Consider that it took months to cross the Atlantic in Galleons, a few weeks in WWII, and now can be done in a week or two. Consider too that 5-7 knots knots was excellent speed for a sailing ship, while 10-15 is 'typical' of ships from WWII, and modern vessels can easily maintain speeds in the 20s. Some can go into the low 30s if they push it for short periods of time.

- I'd remove Inf's Worker abilities, as the AI isn't using them. Perhaps have, with Motorized Transportation or Replaceable Parts, a Civ II "Engineer" style worker which has a movement of 2 that Workers can Upgrade to?

- The Oil resource appearing on coastal tiles is a little problematic, and frustrating; I've had games where at least half the oil resources are unavailable for trade. Until the game itself changes to allow trade access to those resources, I would recomend reverting this to the previous settings.

- I'd love to see more Small and Gov't wonders, perhaps with lesser effects:
: Las Vegas (increase luxuries and happiness)
: Disney Wold (ditto)
: The Internet (modern day Great Library available after 5 Research Centers are built - could replace "Universal Equality")
: Silicon Valley (A WallStreet for Scientific and Commerce civs, available after The Internet is Built)
: Make SETI a trigger for Expansionist Civs (after all, space *is* the final fontier )
: World Trade Organizaion (increases taxes, Commercial and Expansionist, no industry bonus, no culture, no happiness)
: Internal Revenue Service / Inland Revenue Service (Increases effectiveness of Tax Collectors by +1 or +2)
: Nobel Prize (Increases effectivenes of Scientists by +1 or +2; gives them a greater impetus for research)
: War Memorial (Can be built under same circumstances as Military Acadamy; decreases War Weariness; can be built during Mobilization)
: Concentration Camp (Facist Gov't only - increases production and increases *un*happiness, and decreases world opinion. Can be built suring Mobilization [oh, let the flame war begin...])
: Make Forbidden Palace Despotism and Monarchy only (Doesn't seem to have much effect on corruption for China these days, and remember that the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy...)
: Change Statue of Liberty to Republic and Democracy, increase cost, lessen War Weariness effect, decrease corruption as Forbidden Palace, increase International Opinion [people seem to forget that America is a Republic, and not a Democracy, but oh well])
: Politburo (Communism Only, same effect as Forbidden Palace)

- Some city improvements I'd love to see, though I admit I'm unclear if they can be added to the game. These are all *weaker* versions of existing improvments, and are aimed primarily at being built overseas and/or far from the main empire: Think of the things first built in the Old West.)
: Town Sherrif (*significantly* reduces corruption, regardless of distance, costs 1/2 or 1/3 of Courthouse, expires a la City Walls at a city size of 4(if possible, otherwise tweak a little for expiry at 7) - can be built with Republic
: Trading Post (Similarly expires a la City Walls at 7, 1/2 the cost and 1/2 the effectivness as Marketplace, available with Navigation)
: One Room Schoolhouse (again, 1/2 cost, 1/2 effectivness of Library, available with Education, expires at 7)
: Cavalry Outpost (1/2 cost of Barracks, same function, expires at 7)

Having thought about it and checked the CIA World Fact Book ( http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ ) "Constitutional Monarchy" seems to be one of the most popular forms of govn't around. Anyone interested in adding it to their Mod?

Also, FYI the Readme says "-extract pepper, segart, reich, equality, and statue to C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\Art\Wonder Splash" - "stegart" is mis-spelled, and you forgot to include the statue.pcx in that list

Thanks again for the great Mod, sorry to mix so much politics into my post,
Yaga

[Elucidus]

I'm sorry. I put

couldn't

to designate the typo.

Also as far as cavalry, you're right about the stats. I was just thinking about it being easier and more familiar to give them better rifles (since they already use guns) and remove their horses. Puting them in a tank seems a little much.

I think the reason nothing gets to be obsolete is because a city without roads can still build warriors in the year 2000. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. That is the reason I belive rifleman require nothing, which also makes no sense.

(my son has watched Shrek nine times since two and a half days ago. Ahhh, it's driving me crazy)

[korn469]

Also as far as cavalry, you're right about the stats. I was just thinking about it being easier and more familiar to give them better rifles (since they already use guns) and remove their horses. Puting them in a tank seems a little much.

First, I agree with the above that Cav *shouldn't* upgrade to tanks - taking a bunch of guys who're used to riding on horseback and tossing them into metal contraptions isn't nec. going to work

Cavalry shouldn't upgrade to Tanks & Ironclads shouldn't be able to upgrade to Destroyers because the production cost is significantly higher than a mere rifle. $20 is too cheap for a new tank or new destroyer.

Pyrodrew you make you very good point about upgrading and why it has some drawbacks in civ3

however Elucidus and Yaga

in real life in the 1930's the U.S. army upgraded existing cavalry units to armored units...i'm not making it up, check on it if you don't believe me

[Harlan]

A couple of suggestions:


-Universal Equality- Gain any two advances owned by any other governemnt, limited only to
Communism. Useful to gain ground on the scientifically advanced Democratic nations. Lasts until discovery of space flight.

I don't like the name. Too similar to Universal Sufferage. What about Kremlin, or KGB? Both those would tie in better with the idea of getting techs from other civs.

-Reichstag- Allows Fascist governments to build armies in ANY city.
This gives the Fascist government that some complained of being
too weak a considerable advantage.

But can't you already get the Small Wonder that does this?

---There are two new Modern-Age Wonders, due to complaints of there being too few in that
period
-Dinosaur Park-Available with Genetics, this wonder increases tax, science, and luxory output
by 50%
-Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- Available with Ecology, This wonder simply produces 25 culture a turn.

I'm the world's biggest fan of the Beatles, and that album in particular. It was the first album I owed as a kid. But it seems very strange as a wonder, and stranger still to be connected to Ecology. For one of the above, at least, how about Hollywood? Talk about having a huge effect on culture in the modern age - that wins over anything else hands down.

[monkspider]

Thanks for the overwhelming ammount of good suggestions guys, I have a lot of work ahead of me over Thanksgiving
I REALLY like Harlan's ideas regarding the new resources, unfortunately there is no ability in the editor to make luxory resources disappear over time. :-(
Also, I know firsthand how difficult it is to trade resources in the early game, so it might not be such a good idea to have too many for the player to rely on.

[Elucidus]

Korn,

If you're right, then you're right. I don't care enough to look it up. Not right now, anyway. It just doesn't sound right to me.

BTW, any historical references to anyone upgrading frigates to ironclads, or ironclads to destroyers?

[Asesino_Virtual]

DAmn! i cand download the file due limit in the transfer. **** Geocities, MARK, put the file in the server!.

[korn469]

BTW, any historical references to anyone upgrading frigates to ironclads, or ironclads to destroyers?

Elucidus
how about this one

In an attempt to reduce the North's great naval advantage, Confederate engineers converted a scuttled Union frigate, the U.S.S. Merrimac, into an iron-sided vessel rechristened the C.S.S. Virginia. On March 9, in the first naval engagement between ironclad ships, the Monitor fought the Virginia to a draw, but not before the Virginia had sunk two wooden Union warships off Norfolk, Virginia

you can find out more information about it here

http://americancivilwar.com/monitor.html

as for ironclads to destroyers, i can't think of one off the top of my head

[monkspider]

Okay, I updated the link due to bandwidth troubles

http://www.geocities.com/moonpieboy/BALANCER132.zip

[ham50]

I can't get this to work. I put all the files where they are supposed to go but there is nothing different happening in the game, I picked an expansonist civ and the squatter did not show up.

[Harlan]

"I REALLY like Harlan's ideas regarding the new resources, unfortunately there is no ability in the editor to make luxory resources disappear over time. :-(
Also, I know firsthand how difficult it is to trade resources in the early game, so it might not be such a good idea to have too many for the player to rely on."


Monkspider,
Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't actually used the editor yet, just looked at it. But it seems to me that you can change the appearance ratio and disappearance probability for luxury as well as strategic resources using that editor. Its only for the bonus resources that these choices get greyed out.

As for your comment about having too many - that's simply a matter of proper playbalancing. I'm sure proper levels can be struck. So I hope you do go for this idea, after all.