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Thanx Bos for seeing where I'm coming from. I would also love to see more goverment mods made, fanaticism in particular. I also think that having maybe two forms of communism would be nice like maybe Stalinism, for your hardcore commie tyrants, and just plain communism for your laid back China atmosphere. I've been begging wolfshanze to get the fascist unit made and wish it already was, but I guess will just have to wait. If anybody reads this and knows how to mod please for the love of the game make the fascist unit and others as well that pertain to the goverments. Maybe a special communist soldier for that goverment and a gestapo unit for fascism.
"How must the man be constituted who will lead Germany back to her old heights?" The man, should be a dictator not averse to the use of slogans, street parades and demagoguery. He must be a man of the people yet have nothing in common with the mass. Like every great man, he must be "all personality," and one who"does not shrink from bloodshed. Great questions are always decided by blood and iron." To reach his goal, he must be prepared "to trample on his closest friends," dispense law "with terrible hardness" and deal with people and nations "with cautious and sensitive fingers" or if need be "trample on them with the boots of a grenadier." ---Rudolf Hess
Originally posted by facistdictator
make the fascist unit and others as well that pertain to the goverments. Maybe a special communist soldier for that goverment and a gestapo unit for fascism.
That would be very cool!
Exactly like in Civ2 with a fanatic unit for Fundamentalist gov't!
I would also like to see plenty of new gov't options like: Feudalism, Confederation, Constitutional Monarchy, Fundamentalism and maybe a modern gov't because i think that Democracy come to early in the game and it is too weak! It still give you too much corruption! It would be cool a late-game gov't with almost no corruption in which you can accomplish to build your spaceship or your goal!
Also a real military dictatorship would be cool: All unit free and a big powerful special unit. So late-game civs that want to win by world domination can do it without swithing in that hypercorrupted communism!
Anyway
Those are just some ideas.... but if anybody of you knows how to create a mod like that........
Saluti
A man who has not been in Italy, is always conscious of an inferiority. -Samuel Johnson- (1709-84), English author
I love the language, that soft bastard Latin,/Which melts like kisses from a female mouth,/And sounds as if it should be writ on satin/With syllables which breathe of the sweet South.-Lord Byron- (1788-1824), English poet.
Lump the whole thing! Say that the Creator made Italy from designs by Michael Angelo! -Mark Twain- (1835-1910), U.S. author.
Hey Wolfshanze please tell us your working on a updated fascist patch for v1.17?
"How must the man be constituted who will lead Germany back to her old heights?" The man, should be a dictator not averse to the use of slogans, street parades and demagoguery. He must be a man of the people yet have nothing in common with the mass. Like every great man, he must be "all personality," and one who"does not shrink from bloodshed. Great questions are always decided by blood and iron." To reach his goal, he must be prepared "to trample on his closest friends," dispense law "with terrible hardness" and deal with people and nations "with cautious and sensitive fingers" or if need be "trample on them with the boots of a grenadier." ---Rudolf Hess
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
A little thought process and reasoning behind Fascism in Civ3:
Fascism is the third "modern" choice of late-generation governments, especially smaller states, since the corruption is minimum close to home (ie: the original nation). As the Fascist state grows in size, it will have to deal with corruption, but the free-market economy of a Fascist state is better financially and scientifically compared with a Communist regime. Once again, this places all-out war in the "best to use Communism" category, while all-out peace is best to use Democracy... Fascism is somewhere in the middle, with a balance of war and economy, without the war weariness of a Democracy or Republic!
Actually there are four 'modern' governments, but three occured in the 20th century: Fascism, National Socialism, and Communism. They are all variations on a similar theme. They were all intensly corrupt and all socialist, there was NO free market in Nazi Germany, control devolved always to the state. National Socialism concentrated on 'socializing' the individual. While the individual had a piece of paper called a deed or paper ownership of a factory, the state reserved the right to command total control. Socialism in in Germany was de-facto as opposed to de-jure in the Soviet Union. The only thing that held these systems togeather is that most people actually believe in them and the supremem ruler concept. For those who didn't, there was the Gustapo or KGB. Basically these economies consumed themselves and were kept afloat through conquest. The ONLY advantage to these governments is the ability to convert existing surplusses to war and hope that opponants are crushed before the scheme collapses. cf Pyramid scheme. These governments ARE less effective than a monarchy. The only thing that keeps these government operating is their security services. The purpose of all these governments was to implement a form a socialism, by force if necessary. In the case of the Nazi's, with force by preference. In Hitler's own words, NS and Communisim had very much in common and they often cooperated, and former communists were welcomed into the ranks. The balancing factor is that democracies are slow to respond to war situations. On the whole though, in war or peace, a US style democracy is extremely powerful.
So why isn't everyone a US democracy. This goes to the philisophical orientation of the population and that they believe that socialism is the proper social contract. Basically, it is a secular religion.
Originally posted by Bos
After actually reading some of the more recent posts, I figure I also have something to say to that:
SO MUST I! Please do read some books about the Weimar Republic an the rise of national socialism.
First, Italy has been through nearly sixty governments in the last few decades, so I have taken quite an interest in political formations (if you have not already noticed). So that will explain my last post as well as the majority of posts I will probably make in the future. Don't worry I'll try not to be too annoying...
Well, Italy has a weak political structure, thats to be expected, notice that 10s of millions of people don't die from it. A government is best judge by what it does not do TO you, as opposed to what it actually accomplishes.
To return to topic:
I actually have to partly agree with FacistDicator -- I think I understand what he means. I agree in that I disapprove of the slaughter of millions of people. However, when you truly look at the man that was Hitler, you see that he was not pure evil.
I'm glad you dissaprove of mass murder. In terms of Hitlers published philosophy, he was an extremely moral and idealistic man. All the Nazis were. Some of them even pitied the people they were gassing for the good of the people. For me, the term EVIL simply is insufficient to describe this monstrus act.
He actually did much good for Germany. In the thirties, in a world falling to an ailing economy and in a nation still in pain from a war just over a decade past, Hitler managed to bring jobs to the people. He brought money to the populace and he gave them something to believe in: a powerful German homeland. He built the infrastructure that still dominates the nation -- particularly the Autobahn.
Germany in the Weimar Republic, which was a mixed economy striving towards peaceful socialism, was failing miserably under the pressure of competeing interest groups carving up the pie. Armed political parties deliberatly disrupted the country to reach total real socialism quickly through violence. Hitler brought no new jobs to people and further crippled the economy thru increased public spending and heavier taxes. He also built a death camp system (idea borrowed from Stalin) that also still dominates the homeland. Yes, he did give people something to believe in, that the individual must be sacrificed to the state, and he was true to his word. He did NO good for Germany, other nations in similar dire straights did not resort to such barbaric customs.
He also led a beautifully executed military campaign that nearly worked -- had it not been for only a few battles that crushed the German morale: particularly Normandy on the Western Front and Stalingrad on the Eastern Front. He took over nearly all of Europe with a trained and massive military; and overtook Africa with unbelievably efficient tactics. He turned Germany from a third-world country to a first-rate superpower within a few years.
Hitler was no military man. The german general staff was simply the finest in europe, and the other powers had made incredable strategic mistakes. Blind pacifism on the part of the other powers allowd the Nazi absorbion of Austia and Cecholovokia. Had the Chezhs any moral support they could have crushed Germany with their superior army at birth. Stalin particularly encouraged Hitler with their pact dividing eastern europe between them. It was not the crushing of German Moral that defeated Germany, Moral and leadership quality remained high until the very end. Foolishly attacking Russia AND declaring war on the US in support of Japan doomed Germany. The attack on Russia had only one chance for succeess, drive fast to moscow and cut out the heart and behead the beast before Russian production could overwhelm them. A need to Rescue Mossolini from a failed attack on Greece and Hitlers constand diversions to foolish objectives and mostly his obsession with capturing Stalingrad against the advice of his generals was the downfall, the window of opportunity closed. The fact that he got as far as he did was opportunistic, not brilliance, and some help from Stalin himself. Russia's T34 tank was in every respect superior to all but the very late german tanks, except that they lacked radios. Stalins generals understood proper tank tactics just as well as the german staff, who they worked closely with in Kazan prior to the war. Had Stalin not executed 90% of his military commanders ON THE EVE OF THE INVASION and taken even some elementary steps urged by his surviving staff and intelligce services, Hitler would have been stopped cold. Once Hitlers attack failed on moscow, Germany's fate was sealed.
Had he gone about this in a slightly different approach -- sticking to strictly-military campaigns and not drawing ethnic hatred into the mix, we could very well have a Nazi Germany today in place of the stuggling European Union; and again if he did not have his armies mercilessly slaughter innocents, he may have even been remembered as a hero.
Do you take drugs? Read his books, read the philosophers who inspired Germany. Ethnic hatred violence and racial superiority were central to the Nazi religion. And accepted truths of the people. You might as well say that if communism avoided economics Russia would be communist today. These premissis were wholely accepted parts or Nazi and Fascist doctrine, necessary. Militarily, Germany was in trouble the minute he turned on his buddy Stalin, and doomed when he failed, fate sealed with the entry of the Americans.
The EU today is a marvel of consensual and free association and a relatively robust and powerful economy. It is peaceful, prosperous and free of blood lust.
A Nazi Europe, had it survived would be an ecomomic, cultural and political hell hole far more bizzare and hateful that the Soviet Union at its worst. The German economy stagnated and staggared under Nazi rule, but the peopel believed in self sacrifice and sacrifice they did. The storm troopers and Gestapo made sure of it.
None of that romanticism happened, of course, and it was his own bloodlust that both brought him to power and then destroyed him.
Romanticism is actually the philosophy that allowed Hitler to take power. Had the German communists prevaled, the result would have been not far different. The stage had been set in Germany, and in Russia, for decades, it only needed someone able to fulfill the roles.
Of course, there are some good things that have also come even after his death. Europe learned that radical nationalism is a bad thing and decided to become slightly more hesitant to be patriotic. Europeans had become untrusted and deemed dangerous, particularly when you consider that two world wars were just fought on its soil. Europe had also just been destroyed once, as Germany advaced throughout; and destroyed again as the United States moved in. It was because of Hitler's wrath that we learned we had to unite, so had it not been for World War II, there would have never even been a European Coal and Steel Commission, no European Union, and none of the steps in between. We would still be living in the third-world, with periodic wars to promote our own culture and to punish the heathens. Europe actually owes it to Hitler for what we are today.
Europe and the world owe nothing to Hitler, or Stalin or Mussolinie, but contempt and justified hatred. You owe it to yourself to read some real history books, I beg you. 50 million people died so there would be a coal and steel commission? Is that intended as ironic humor? In one sense, the cataclysm of the war did partially wipe out the influences that were at the heart of its cause, socialism in all its flavors. The coming togeather of western europe was mainly a response to Stalin, and also to ensure no such wars of conquest would happen again.
Again, I do not praise Hitler for his slaughter
Good
; but he did indeed do many good things. That, I believe, is what FacistDictator was talking about. However, I understand that others wish to hold their own beliefs and see them from their own point of view; but when you have lived in a nation that had not only seen the wrath but lived it, you see things from a different perspective.
Murder was a central tennent of the Nazi program, sacrifice of any and all to achieve their ideals. I've been to Germany, and the death camps, I live in Russia and they have the same blindness to Stalin as you show to Hitler. The only answer is the these philosophis, and ideals, could only act as they did, and no other result was possible. The duty of the individual is sacrifice to the state, for the good of the people. Since the people are ingorant of their best interests, becaue those intersets can only be know by some extraordinary inspriation (great leader), the Leader of the state is the only source of what is the will of the people. Acceptance of this allows you to morally murder yourself as well as others since they have no value except to be sacrificed to the will of the state. This is the specific ideology as given by the socialists themselves. This is the root of the disaster of WWII and the Soviet Union, not some overly enthusiastic man with a few flaws. National Socialist Europe, would have collaped on its own just as the Soviet Union imploded. It only needed to follow its own path of death.
If you premis is that Hitler was just a little misguided, you are deadly wrong. He was a symptom of a greater widespread ill that demanded, and still demands the blood of the world.
Paulmagesnet you are wrong about hitler not saving germany in the begining. Truly everyone knows that he lead them to oblivion, but its best to be truthful about the facts and not to be misguided by propaganda by those who defeated him. Dont get me wrong your post was good but when i read it alot of it was you talking and not actual history. Modern historians have even said in several documenturies that Adolf Hitler did bring Germany out of economic crisis. So he did create jobs, gave food to the starving people (who were pure German of course), and commisioned many projects that were abandoned like the making of the Auto Bond. Common sense will tell you that a party trying to take over a country does not get there by not doing good things for the people. The people's belief in Hitler was solidified the moment he made the promises a realality. Which were to create work, build a strong military that deliberately ignored the Versailles treaty of a restricted 100,000 man army, and bring the country out of economic downfall. Many historians have said that political genius is a major understatment for Adolf Hitler as a statesman. In short the third reich would never have been born had it not been for Adolf Hitler.
So your personification of Hitler as being some idiot who was at the right place at the right time to acomplish all this is wrong indeed. William L. Shirer author of the famous Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, even quoted Hitler as a man with amazing capacity to size up people and situations. I'm not trying to give Hitler credit here because I'm some burnout skinhead with no job, I just support fact and that is a fact.
Now the Third Reich, which was born on January 30,1933. It lasted 12 years and four months, but in that flicker of time, as history goes, it caused an eruption on this earth more violent and shattering than any previously experienced, making the German people the masters of Europe from the Atlantic to the Volga, from the North Cape to the Mediterranean. Now that is a major acomplishment historicaly speaking. For a peasant stock man who was a natural born loser, to take over a nation by only what was coming out of his mouth and forge an army and police like no other in history, then nearly conquer the world is of major historical significance.
"How must the man be constituted who will lead Germany back to her old heights?" The man, should be a dictator not averse to the use of slogans, street parades and demagoguery. He must be a man of the people yet have nothing in common with the mass. Like every great man, he must be "all personality," and one who"does not shrink from bloodshed. Great questions are always decided by blood and iron." To reach his goal, he must be prepared "to trample on his closest friends," dispense law "with terrible hardness" and deal with people and nations "with cautious and sensitive fingers" or if need be "trample on them with the boots of a grenadier." ---Rudolf Hess
"How must the man be constituted who will lead Germany back to her old heights?" The man, should be a dictator not averse to the use of slogans, street parades and demagoguery. He must be a man of the people yet have nothing in common with the mass. Like every great man, he must be "all personality," and one who"does not shrink from bloodshed. Great questions are always decided by blood and iron." To reach his goal, he must be prepared "to trample on his closest friends," dispense law "with terrible hardness" and deal with people and nations "with cautious and sensitive fingers" or if need be "trample on them with the boots of a grenadier." ---Rudolf Hess
Hello, old Wolfshanze here... sorry for my long absence, but between overseas deployments and other military commitments, I have not had any spare time until now to work on the Fascist Patch.
Well, I finally sat down to "officially" support v1.17f with the Fascist Patch, and to ENSURE complete compatability, I put a fresh install of Civ3 on my computer and a fresh upgrade to v1.17f, so that nothing was tainted.
I then proceeded to do all the necessary changes using the built-in Civ3Edit program, added Fascism, and did all the other needed changes, then tried to run the game, and it popped up saying:
SCENARIO VERSION INVALID
Invalid scenario version
Version 3.00 is no longer compatible
"What the heck is that" I said. I've never had a problem using the editor before, especially off a clean install... I thought maybe something went wrong, so I uninstalled, reinstalled the game, and the v1.17f patch, then used the editor again and got the exact same error message.
I know I've been gone a long time, but what the heck happened? Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss something? Until I figure this thing out, I can't "officially" support the v1.17f patch!
Someone help please?!?!
Wolfshanze Mod: for BtS... adds "flavored Civs", coal-fired navies, WWI units, plus Poland, Austria & Vietnam to Civ4!
Re: all the arguments over fascism Vs Nazism, I effectively solved this in game by having fascism and Nazism being two different governments. I haven't tried it yet, but the way it works is that Fascism works the same way it's presented here, but with no free units and Problematic corruption, and some tweaked resistance/propaganda values. Nazism is what Monkspider was after, a kind of total war govt. Rates capped at 7, EIGHT military police, with resistance through the ceiling for all govts except Anarchy and Despotism.
Hmmm... well, with NO free units, and PROBLEMATIC corruption (plus the fact you lowered workers), is there any reason to ever use Fascism the way you describe it?
Sorry to say, but it becomes a totally pointless government that nobody in their right mind would touch with a ten foot poll.
You made it a lot worse than it was represented by the Fascist Patch, and you didn't make up for the negative changes in any way, so there is NO REASON to EVER become Fasicst. You may as well simply remove the government form all-together, why bother?
Whether or not you think you made it more historically accurate you obviously aren't taking gameplay balance into the equation here, and you've made a useless government.
Wolfshanze Mod: for BtS... adds "flavored Civs", coal-fired navies, WWI units, plus Poland, Austria & Vietnam to Civ4!
Well, actually I haven't tried them with the worse corruption, and when I get home I think I'll change them back, but I have played with the fascist govt from the original patch w/o free units and it seems to work. I haven't actually tried it myself (I can do a fairly good job of fighting wars of aggression under Democracy), but it seems to be the war govt of choice for the AI.
Well of course it WORKS with the changes you've made, and the warlike governments will choose it because in the Fascist patch, several warlike civs have Fascism as their PREFERED government... so if you took the fascist patch, and made fascism absolutely useless, the computer would still use it because it's favored by several civs.
Any change you make will work, the question you have to ask yourself is not if it works, but rather if it is worth it compared to other available government types.
For the record, if you took my Fascist Patch, and changed the free units to zero across the board, of course it will work, because what you just did was turn Fascism into every-day joe-blow Republic, except you have forced labor instead of buy-rushing and no war weariness.
The reason why I gave it free units is precisely to make it more warlike than a republic, and to try and make up for in free units what will inevitably be an awful economy in the modern age, with ancient-republic style corruption (which is why nobody uses republic in modern times). The free units were to off-set the terrible corruption level and the effect it would have on the economy.
I took gameplay issues to heart very seriously to balance Fascism... any weaker, and you may as well choose either Communism or Democracy, as both in the long run are better than the Fascism you describe.
Wolfshanze Mod: for BtS... adds "flavored Civs", coal-fired navies, WWI units, plus Poland, Austria & Vietnam to Civ4!
As matter of fact, none of the civs in my version have Fascism as a preferred govt. Not that it makes much difference anyhow: Evetyone in peacetime goes for Democracy as fast as possible, even if they have it s a shunned govt.
The reason why I gave it free units is precisely to make it more warlike than a republic, and to try and make up for in free units what will inevitably be an awful economy in the modern age, with ancient-republic style corruption (which is why nobody uses republic in modern times). The free units were to off-set the terrible corruption level and the effect it would have on the economy.
Actually I have seen many posts in the Strategy and General forums stating that Republic is better than Democracy as the only advantagea Democracy has are faster workers and less coruption, and apparently the corruption difference is hardly noticable. The advantages of Rep over Demo are that it has lower war weariness and that to switch to Demo you have to go through some Anarchy.Besides, if you want free units then Nazism has the same number that Fascism does here.
SCENARIO VERSION INVALID
"What the heck is that" I said. I've never had a problem using the editor before, especially off a clean install... I thought maybe something went wrong, so I uninstalled, reinstalled the game, and the v1.17f patch, then used the editor again and got the exact same error message.
I know I've been gone a long time, but what the heck happened? Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss something? Until I figure this thing out, I can't "officially" support the v1.17f patch!
Someone help please?!?!
Apparently they released the worng Editor with V1.17f. You can download the correct one at civ3.com or at the Civ 3 section of 'Poly.
EDIT: Forogt to mention that I've given all four 'modern' govts an increase in worker speed: Demo now has '4', the others now have '3'.
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
As matter of fact, none of the civs in my version have Fascism as a preferred govt. Not that it makes much difference anyhow: Evetyone in peacetime goes for Democracy as fast as possible, even if they have it s a shunned govt.
I've noticed that too! and it annoy me. What good is it to have shunned/favorite gov if the AI won't respect it? It's also boring to see everyone at democracy/republic in the industrial and modern ages...
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Thanx Bos for seeing where I'm coming from. I would also love to see more goverment mods made, fanaticism in particular. I also think that having maybe two forms of communism would be nice like maybe Stalinism, for your hardcore commie tyrants, and just plain communism for your laid back China atmosphere. I've been begging wolfshanze to get the fascist unit made and wish it already was, but I guess will just have to wait. If anybody reads this and knows how to mod please for the love of the game make the fascist unit and others as well that pertain to the goverments. Maybe a special communist soldier for that goverment and a gestapo unit for fascism.
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