Lessons Learned from my last campaign

[Modo44]

Originally posted by DreamSlave2112
-The jury, I think, is still out on few large cities versus several small ones, so I was goign for large cities.

Only on really big maps where there is time to expand, and the difficulty level is not very high. Certainly not, ever, if being on an island.

Originally posted by DreamSlave2112
-I just developed gunpoder and am now exhcanging muskets for Immortals and use them either as shield sources or an offensive weapon. I used the mat first because they were stronger than spearmen.

I really hope you were not letting them actually receive attacks, instead of building Spearmen. That would be really bad.

Originally posted by DreamSlave2112
Sell walls in size 7 or more, they are not useful. In fact never build one again, until you play deity or AW (on the homeland).
- since they cost nothing and I had nothing to build, did it for fits and jiggles, could use them as money makers (build and sell worked real good in I & II)

They cost 10 Shields. Build a Spear for 20 instead, or even make a Galley for transportation.

Contrary to what vmxa says, I do use Walls, just not in my core. They are good for far-away outpost cities, preferably put on Hills, preferably drawing attacks away from my core.

Originally posted by DreamSlave2112
Markets in size 2 no growth is not a good plan, that town could be doing something useful.
- Prob. should sell those that are costing more than they make.

If it was Jungle, I would say cut it down to let the city grow. But since it sits on Hills, the obvious (!) solution is to turn it into a fort (Walls, Barracks, the cheapest culture improvement, perhaps a Courthouse), and crank out exclusively units. I would switch it to a Courthouse, so as not to lose too many of the accumulated Shields (all other useful builds are much cheaper).

Originally posted by DreamSlave2112
No cats/trebs to ping attackers and Dromons.
-Are they more useful in III than they were in I or II?

I almost never use Cats, but Trebs and later bombard units are definately worth their price. They can significantly cut down your losses, which means you can commint more production to other builds (or more units, whichever you prefer).

Originally posted by DreamSlave2112
Not many mines in the main cities, so they cannot build things at a decent pace.
- had to feed the masses.

Wrong. You build Granaries to do that for you, and concentrate on production, to improve the economy with infrastructure, and defend the masses with more units. While it is definately advisable to Irrigate Grassland near many Hills/Mountains, you usually want all of it Mined on flat terrain. The onyl exception are food bonuses, which should be Irrigated to make Settler/Worker pumps.


I note that you have lots of contacts, but no Embassies. You also have some tech trades possible, but not made. Why?

Furthermore, you need to keep scouting with your ships, or get World Maps as fast as possible. Yes, you have contacts already, but you need to know the map for trade routes to work. You have luxuries waiting to be bought!

[vmxa1]

Modo44 I did not mention all of the possible valid times for walls, but there are some. If you are in an always war at emperor or better, you may need a wall in the capitol.

But surely one does not need a wall in a straight up game at emperor or lower.

Now a front line city that is getting attack can benefit from a wall, but really I just do not build them even at Sid except for invasion cities.

Why because by the time I can get a barracks and a wall in towns on the perimeter, they are no longer needed.

[vmxa1]

No problem, I am willing to be convinced, but you will need a stong case.

"The jury, I think, is still out on few large cities versus several small ones, so I was goign for large cities."

Maybe the OJ Simpson jury is still out, but when you find yourself on an smallish island, you cannot afford to waste space. You need to get as many coastal cities down as you can.

You can only use 12 tiles until you get to hospitals, that may never come to pass,

"I just developed gunpoder and am now exhcanging muskets for Immortals and use them either as shield sources or an offensive weapon. I used the mat first because they were stronger than spearmen."

Muskets are best to have in towns that are in danger of attack and not spend the money on more than you need. Attackers are better.

The point of spears earlier in the game to go with the Immortals is that you can afford to lose a cheap spear, better than losing an Immortal. So a pike cost the same, but has 3 defense. It is worth upgrading a few spears.

Muskets cost twice what an immortal does, so I would be less inclined to build them to protect my attackers. It could be worth it, especially if you are going to capture a city or two and use them to hold it.

Worth it if you have gold to spare for upgrades to muskets. Worth it maybe if you are building muskets and immortals now to send out. Not worth it if you have to hold the Immortals back waiting to build muskets.

So you can have so many permutation that they cannot be covered, you have to use your judgement. My point was to make you aware of the idea that a 20 shield spears can be used to cover an Immortal, cheaper than another Immortal.

"since they cost nothing and I had nothing to build, did it for fits and jiggles, could use them as money makers (build and sell worked real good in I & II)"

I think the idea that one must build somethig rather than nothing is fine, but nothing is better than something you cannot use.

So instead of a wall in a town that should get to size 7 before it can ever be attack or will never be attacked in the first place, make a worker, a cat, a settler. Just use your experience to see if you really will get anything from a wall there.

This is CivIII and walls do not give absolute protection like they almost did in II and are not active in size 7 or more.


"Are they more useful in III than they were in I or II?"

Look at it this way, what do you have to slow down those Dromons that will bust up your improvements? Nothing right now and you cannot afford to let them have a free hand. So a cat (I will use this term for all forms of bombardment units) could hit it and normally the AI will send that ship back to heal. Buys you some time.

Cats can take off a HP or two on attackers that makes it more likely you will win that combat, very improtant to raise kill ratios.

"had to feed the masses."

If that is the case then there was nothing else you could do. I do not have the save up now, so I can now say. I will say that it would be extermely unlikely to find my core with 4, 5 or more irrigated tiles for any cities, especially if it is mostly green.

Were you in despotism? A size 12 needs 24 food, so irrigated grass is 3.

Anyway what I am interested in is to a) learn more b) pass on any info that seems useful to others.

To learn, interaction is required. So if you can present a good case, I am willing to learn. If you want to improve, just keep posting and others will try to offer another perspective.

The good thing about the advice offered is that you can ignore it, if you don't agree.

So I hope some of the concepts will be useful to you.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by vmxa1
But surely one does not need a wall in a straight up game at emperor or lower.

I have to disagree. Perhaps it is my more peaceful style, but I did see my cities attacked before going over size 7, and I definately had small cities on borders. Since my civ is very often very static (at least the borders are), I find Walls useful in such cases, to prevent strategic weakness. They look cool, too.


I played with the save a bit. What I did:

The AI was already beginning the Industrial Age, so drastic moves were required. I did some trading (for techs, for resoruces I had no surpulus of, for cash), and got the whole (only mandatory!) Medieval Age tech tree, at which point the Scientific trait worked. For Medicine, which nobody had, I got Steam Power and other goodies (like my resources back, los of cash, luxuries). Only 10 turns passed, but it seems a tech lead is established (only on mandatory techs, Nationalism is not one of them...), which will be reaffirmed with the construction of Theory of Evolution. The Palace in Lute Channel is a prebuild. It needs to be timed to finish a turn after Scientific Method is researched, and then it can be switched to the wonder. This way no AI will snag it.

Did lots and lots of trading. This is tedious due to the stupid interface, but I checked every civ for what it would pay (or sell) for what, and then traded around. When buying techs, I tried to sell them to someone else to get something more than just the tech. When selling advanced techs, I made sure to get lots of cash, maps, luxuries, and resources (note that the Inca are providing Coal).

Early, switched (or kept) builds to Universities. Obviously those are needed to get, and keep a tech lead. Fortunately the civ is PErsia, so they were cheap.

Put some Settlers in build queues of the less productive cities. There are spots not worked by any city, and those need to be filled. Since you have the Pyramids, use the new cities to make Workers to finish Railroading quickly.

Used Workers to start Mining, and Railroading the flat land. 4 of them can make a Mine or RR (would be 6 normally, but the civ is Industrious), so I stacked them in groups of 4 for easier management. Note the "slight" increase in productivity of the affected cities...

I think the next builds should be more Pikes, plus some Trebuchets, and Galleons. Why Pikes? To have defenders built quickly (as vmxa noted, they are cheap), and to prepare for a massive upgrade with Replaceable Parts. The situation at hand required no war, so I decided to hold off (Immortals against mostly Muskets is no fun anyway). And with Rep. Parts that will be lots of Guerilla + Infantry + Artillery. It will cost a small fortune to upgrade, but that can be gotten by selling techs. And the force should be enough to kill even Germany (after getting some experience by conquering minor civs, like Greece and the Hitties).

I did not even bother managing citizens, as the difficulty level does not really require this.

Here is the save:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=54803_Mighty_Norsemen_920_AD.SAV

And here is a screenie:

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Modo44

I have to disagree. Perhaps it is my more peaceful style, but I did see my cities attacked before going over size 7, and I definately had small cities on borders. Since my civ is very often very static (at least the borders are), I find Walls useful in such cases, to prevent strategic weakness. They look cool, too.

I do not see much difference in this and what I have said. I said you could make a case for a wall in a frontline city and there are valid times to have a wall. So I realy don't think we have a big disagreement.

I just do not need them at an easy level like emperor. That is not to say that no city could ever benefit from a wall at some point. Just that it is not needed so much that I will be building them.

If I have a small border town after the AA, it has probably got plenty of units in it or near it. I probably will be staging to add the next town to the empire.

Those first ten turns in that one shield town will probably go for a worker, not a wall.

Anyway my point was to get the idea that a knee jerk reaction of a wall in a city on your perifiery is seldom the best choice. Especially on an island. That city is not going to be exposed to a stream of invaders. Playing AWD, yes get that wall up.

My real point is to evaluate any structure for that point in time and only build those you really need, not those that would be nice to have and you would feel better about having.

So when I say never build one at lower levels, that is my style, but I am really saying is ask yourself again, before you do it.

As you say, it may be a good idea, but I am dubious that it is required.