How to win at RoR

[Solomwi]

One point I want to get you to expound a bit on, Dom: preferring to lose HW to Persia, rather than Macedon.

I agree that Macedon's a more inviting target, and hoplites behind walls are pretty stout, but the city that's going to build HW (usually, in my experience, Athens or Sparta), is either going to be coastal or within a turn or two's march, and likely to be a city, rather than town, by the time you get there (which may not matter, I never paid enough attention to the GW's effects to know if it also doubles the city defense bonus).

The main reason I prefer Macedon having it is, because of the access you can have to their cities, you can take it in the first battle, as long as you dictate the timing of the war. For instance, if it's in Athens, move two galleys out of Croton (or better, whatever city you found on the heel, 233 of Tarentum) two turns before declaring, then sail right in and drop them on the gold hill ready to strike the next turn, or the turn the war starts, if you don't mind the rep hit . Obviously, once the wall is in your hands, it ceases to be an issue. The upshoot is that, assuming you go to war with the holder of HW, you get one potentially bloody battle instead of several of them as you slog your way through Persia to get to it.

Of course, secondarily, it's my understanding that Persia steamrols Macedon more often than the other way around, and if Macedon has HW, it stands a better chance of stalemating Persia.

[Neal the Neophyte]

Solomwi,
As a point of interest, in my current game HW was built by Thessalonika - which makes it considerably harder to capture since it's well into the Macedonian territory.

[Solomwi]

Somewhat tougher, but you still have a few options that make it easier than taking it from Persia.

A) Gather a giant galley stack and sail in. Not ideal, for a few reasons. First, Macedon tends to have a slew of galleys. Second, it means three turns with your galleys exposed (third turn they're empty, having unloaded the legions). It also means your forces sitting idle for three turns. This isn't a big issue, since any offensive they mount should be easy enough to repel, but is still something I don't like doing. Still, it's quite feasible.

B) Fight your way through Sardica to get there. The obvious drawback here is increasing your number of battles with HW in Macedonian hands by at least one, and possibly more if they've settled the area just north of Sardica (which I've yet to see them really do, btw). It's likely to be fewer than you'll fight with it in Persian hands, though. Still, you've got superior units and it's feasible.

C) Bypass Sardica and anything else on the way and march straight to Thessalonika. This isn't too bad, except it's going to take 5 turns with fastmovers, at a minimum. It does, however, alleviate the problem of extra bloody battles. Now this same approach can be taken to Persia, of course, but even if you sign an ROP with Scythia, it's going to take much longer.

For the record, I usually see them start it in Antandrus, then switch to it in Athens or Sparta when the first wonder cascade hits. If one of them doesn't get it in the first cascade, chances are I'm going to get it. They tried building it in Thebes once, but that would be the same situation as Athens, for all intents and purposes.

The closest I've seen Persia build it, OTOH, is Trapezus, when they and Macedon had fought to a standstill, with original borders intact. That means either going through Scythia (a LONG march), landing in Macedonian Asia Minor and marching through, then either taking or bypassing Ancyra, Sinope and Zela (a minimum 9 turn march with 2 move units if everything goes right and you bypass those cities), or marching north from either a landing on the southern coast of Asia Minor or your own holdings in the Middle East, if you have any. Whichever route you go, it's going to be more trouble than taking it from the most insulated Macedonian city. More often, Persia builds it even deepr, like in Gazaca.

Personally, with it in either Thessalonika, Byzantium or one of the Asia Minor cities, I'd probably take the seaborne approach with as many cover galleys (empty and veteran/elite, with my legions riding in regular galleys to keep them from defending if attacked) as I could muster.

I'm thinking that Dom's answer is going to be he doesn't plan on fighting Persia, and it's definitely possible to win without fighting either of the other two major powers. The way I approach it is that Macedon having HW keeps all my strategic options open more than Persia having it, and Persia's cities in the Levant can make them an attractive target indeed.

Thinking about the scenario in general a little in reverse, has anybody seen Macedon settle on that one tile their culture borders give them in Italy? That would be an ideal spot to build up a force and attack Rome.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by Dominae
This allows me to dictate the timing for my GA

must admit, one of the first things i started trying to work out on this scenario is - how not to be forced into a ga.

i'm quite surprised that so many of the big guns aren't even taking it into consideration

of course, i must admit i haven't even found time to play this through once yet. so i reckon i get dibs on the salt

[Modo44]

Originally posted by lebensraum
must admit, one of the first things i started trying to work out on this scenario is - how not to be forced into a ga.

I find most scenarios to go like this: The earlier your GA, the better. Especially the ones you start with many cities already built.

In RoR, since I would be playing on Demigod or higher, the starting cities are basically my whole productive base. Meaning, I need not prepare much for the GA. The obvious conclusion is: You bet I want the GA early.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Modo44
In RoR, since I would be playing on Demigod or higher, the starting cities are basically my whole productive base. Meaning, I need not prepare much for the GA.

As I argued above, your starting cities in RoR (and their surrounding tiles) are not as fleshed out as they could be, in some rather important respects. So I fail to see why you "need not prepare much" for your GA in the sense that you have all you could hope for when your GA starts on turn two.

In the sense that you do not "need" big productive cities during your GA to win, you are certainly correct. But there are multiple paths to victory in most scenarios, and some better are better than others. That's what we're debating here.

[Neal the Neophyte]

SOLOMWI,

Gather a giant galley stack and sail in. Not ideal, for a few reasons. First, Macedon tends to have a slew of galleys. Second, it means three turns with your galleys exposed (third turn they're empty, having unloaded the legions). It also means your forces sitting idle for three turns.

My experience with the Macedonian galleys has not been good. They always seem to have a lot of veteran and elite galleys and seem to have an edge in galley battles. Truth is, I didn't think about putting troops in regular galleys to avoid them fighting first. Guess I need to try a huge galley fleet and see how it works.

With the Great Lighthouse, I can safely go from Croton to Ambrica in one move. That sure is tempting when the alternative is a long sea voyage through Macedonian territory.

Fight your way through Sardica to get there. The obvious drawback here is increasing your number of battles with HW in Macedonian hands by at least one, and possibly more if they've settled the area just north of Sardica

Macedonia hasn't settled North of Sardia, but they have established Salone, which extends the Cultural Barrier (CB) well northward. I would have to take Salone to offset about six tiles of CB. Without an Army, it will take many more than 5 moves to get to Thessolonika. It will take a huge force to take the city, even at full strength - which is unlikely as I may have to fight my way through. Thessalonika is walled, has Harridan's Wall, and is defended by elite and veteran Hoplites and can be easily reinforced - unlike my forces, which can't even heal. With the defense bonus Hoplites are more than a match for Legionary 3's (L3) - taking out one and a half to two L3 per attack. I tried wearing the city down with fire catapults, but only succeeded in destroying improvements - but not the wall or the units.

Having taken Abracia, it would be easier to take Thebes and then Athens (which strangely enough isn't walled). Sparta would be tougher since it is built on hills and is walled, but my captured cities would be able to supply reinforcements.

BTW, Carthage again threw an Army at me after I took Carthago - two war elephants and a spearman, and this slowed me down until I could build up my defensive units. Apparently, I need to ferry a stronger garrison force to Africa since I tied up my L3's defending the city.

I think one of the problems with this game is that I messed around checking out suggestions and game play and wasted many moves. I hadn't intended to play the scenario out, but once I got started I couldn't quit. In the meantime, I gave Macedonia and Persia plenty of time to improve and settle.

Thanks to you guys' suggestions, even though I wasted a lot of early moves futzing around, I still managed to be a contender. I wiped Carthage out of Iberia and North Africa. I had all the civs and barbs fighting each other and was attacked only sporadically by the Goths and Scythians without any damage. Unfortunately, Persia had eliminated Egypt and had taken a lot of Carthage cities in Africa. Rather than fight the Persians in Africa, I attacked Macedonia. Maybe I should have attacked Persia instead since I had two armies in Africa.

Onward and upward! I'll keep playing until I win.

[Solomwi]

Well, first off, I'm not sure I'd tackle Macedon until I had Carthage put to rest.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't that's it's easy to take, but that it's perfectly "takeable", and much more accessible in Macedon than in Persia. As I've said several times, yes, you're going to have a bloody fight getting it. The key is to minimize the number of bloody fights. That number can be gotten to one with Macedon, even if HW is in Thessalonika. The best I've seen it in Persia, barring a long, city-bypassing march, is four. Now, on the situation you're describing, that's why you have to bring enough the first time. Before ever declaring war, you should investigate the city and, in these circumstances, bringing two attackers per defender should result in you capturing the city.

The Croton-Ambracia jump is nice (even nicer if you found a city 233 from Tarentum and use it instead of Croton), but keep in mind that you can get part of the journey done before war ever breaks out. Wherever you're going, just get the galleys one tile outside the nearest border and wait. They're safe for the moment, and next turn you can declare war and have full movement on them.

Btw, I bet if you check again, you'll find Athens is larger than size 6.

[Neal the Neophyte]

Well, first off, I'm not sure I'd tackle Macedon until I had Carthage put to rest.

I agree, and that was my origional plan. But having futzed around too long in the early game and being delayed by the Carthage army in North Africa, I was getting too close to game end and decided to go for Macedon.

I think you're missing my point, which isn't that's it's easy to take, but that it's perfectly "takeable", and much more accessible in Macedon than in Persia.

I actually did get your point - I was just whining about the perceived difficulty. I assumed that I would be constantly attacked by HC and my attacking force would be considerably weakened and without the ability to heal during the long march past Sardica to Thessalonika.

Now, on the situation you're describing, that's why you have to bring enough the first time. Before ever declaring war, you should investigate the city and, in these circumstances, bringing two attackers per defender should result in you capturing the city.

You just exposed a newbie mistake. I have yet to use the spy capability to determine strength before I declare war. Guess I have to play smarter rather than harder. This thread has been a great learning experience.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by Neal the Neophyte


I agree, and that was my origional plan. But having futzed around too long in the early game and being delayed by the Carthage army in North Africa, I was getting too close to game end and decided to go for Macedon.

Understandable. One thing to keep in mind about general grand strategy statements like the one I made: every once in a while, you find yourself in a situation that calls for just that.

I actually did get your point - I was just whining about the perceived difficulty. I assumed that I would be constantly attacked by HC and my attacking force would be considerably weakened and without the ability to heal during the long march past Sardica to Thessalonika.

Ahh, gotcha. One way to head that off is to use a healthy army or two for the march. Whether you march them alone, or with other units underneath, the AI won't attack, unless it's with a full army of its own (presumably on that last part).

You just exposed a newbie mistake. I have yet to use the spy capability to determine strength before I declare war. Guess I have to play smarter rather than harder. This thread has been a great learning experience.

As for the yes/no decision on war, checking the military advisor should be all the intelligence you need. When you're putting your plan together beforehand and outlining specific objectives, investigating cities comes in handy. For instance, I'm replaying it again using Dom's delayed GA variant (think I delayed it too long, though, sinced I kicked it off via Bacchanalia about three turns before discovering Imperialism. Stupid Macedon getting stupid philosophy.), and when putting together my Macedon invasion forces, investigated Athens, Sparta and Thebes. Finding them all defended by only three hoplites, I realized I had enough legions together to take all three of them, plus Ambracia and Argos on the turn after landing. Second turn of the war and pretty much Alexander's entire core is in my hands. It's all academic after that. I also eschewed building wonders early on, sticking to only HW and Bacchanalia. Macedon racked up on them, which made capturing their core even sweeter (ToA, Oracle and now-defunct Great Library all in one fell swoop, with the Colossus and Lighthouse following soon after ).

[Aqualung71]

Wow, grat discussion guys. I was going to comment, but I can't find anything I was going to comment on that hasn't already been covered

My main point to reiterate though based on experience in the DemoGame, is that early Workers are a must! Modo and I played the first 2 Emperors, 5 turns each, and by 10 turns we had left the following Emperors with plenty of workers to build the economy.

[Solomwi]

I started a game as Persia last night, which I highly recommend. Anyway, even though I'm only up to 140 BC, a few thoughts on winning this way:

*You need workers, a lot of them, desperately, quickly, just like Italy, only probably moreso.

*Don't worry about wonder-building. Your temples are half-price, so ToA isn't worth as much, and Macedon will compliantly build most of the wonders for you. The only one I'm building myself is Bacchanalia, partly because nobody else has silks and spices. Btw, I was mistaken above. There is one instance of spices that Rome can't really keep away from Persia, but the AI is always slow to hook it up.

*Unlike Dominae's approach to Rome, time is not on your side with Persia, and delaying the GA for more than a couple of turns didn't look like a good strategy at all, despite the underdeveloped nature of your cities. The good news is that you have a lot of plains and hills, so you're not missing out on many bonus shields. If you keep your Immortals in check, the stream of hoplites is going to do some damage.

*Military Training is, IMO, too far down the road to let your initial army start empty, and Immortals are the only unit you have at the start worth putting into an army.

*You have ivory near Ecbatana. Get a settler over there and claim it. Unlike Rome, Numidian Mercs are actually an improvement defensively over the spearmen you can build. They can tilt the playing field in your favor against hoplites, especially stacked with Immortals (giving the stack 4 attack and 3 defense), and, judiciously placed, can hold their own when Macedon gets ancient cavalry.

*On the first turn, I engaged Rome and Carthage, but not Egypt, in alliances against Macedon. Why not Egypt? Because it's a pushover right on your borders with some nice goodies (incense, access to gems, the Pelusium chokepoint). I was happy with taking Gaza and Pelusium, but why stop when the war on that front isn't really costing anything? Send your archers toward Egypt at the start (they're going to be next to useless against Macedon), and divert 4-5 horsemen that way and all of Egypt can be yours.

*Stupid AI: The AI sucks with Rome. Not only has he lost Sicily completely, he's failed to take any African or Spanish cities, and only held Aleria for a few turns. Plus, he doesn't scout well or use citizens well, judging by the world maps I get from him and his lack of expansion, particularly to the east. My strategy is still to avoid a direct confrontation with Rome, due to sheer brute force and the fact that it's unncessary.

*On grand strategy, my plan is to annex all of Macedon and Egypt (done), then turn on the Scythians. Wiping them out will open all of Asia for me to settle, at which point, it should be just a matter of going through the motions until I've claimed enough land for domination or hit 5500 points. I'm also settling the African coast, of course.

*In addition to those two areas, you have plenty of room in your starting area to plant cities, and some very productive ones, at that.

*Use the Celts and Goths to your advantage. Trade resources to them so that when they inevitably do fight Rome, they stand a chance of hurting them. You never have to settle even remotely close to them or fight them.

*Back to thge early GA. Build horsemen in your core and Immortals/defenders in Asia Minor, once you have your workers going. Slowmovers built in Mesopotamia or southwestern Persia will take forever to reach the front, and horsemen are upgradable. Again unlike with Rome, I found it useful to build several libraries once I had literature.

*Research: I beelined to Philosophy from the start. Tactics is an empty tech for Persia, and the AI loves construction, so you'll be able to trade for it. By the time I got Philosophy, Carthage had Tactics, allowing me to trade Philo+cash for it and take MT as my free tech. If I had it to do over, I might have taken Monotheism, for trade bait. Rome had Monarchy and Construction and was, to put it bluntly, underwhelmed with my newfound knowledge at the trade table. Still, I won't need churches for quite some time, and heavy cavs paid off immediately. I was eventually able to trade for Construction, and subsequently Engineering, by researching Astronomy, but had to research Monarchy on my own.

*Once you've secured Asia Minor (including that beautiful Byzantium chokepoint), an amphibious strike right into Macedon's heart becomes a real possibility. With the Lighthouse, you're still going to be vulnerable for a turn, but staying as far away as possible, and inside your borders, for that turn lessens the chances of a galley attack. Athens and Thebes fall like a house of cards to a force of Immortals and heavy cavs, and your two main forces can link up at Thessalonika. At this point, you've crippled Macedon, and should have no problem finishing them off.

*When you first start getting some vet Immortals in Asia Minor, try to control the mountains between Iconium and Miletus as much as possible. Otherwise, you're going to have to pry some hoplites out of them, and that's not fun.

*Stupid AI, part Deaux: This really has nothing to do with strategy for Persia, but bears mentioning. Carthage managed to build Hadrian's Wall... in Caralis (on Sardinia)... when Olbia was already past size six. In other words, they got exactly one set of city walls out of it.

[joncnunn]

Hadrian's Wall also doubles the strength of walls on the same landmass.

So make that two cities that benifited.

Originally posted by Solomwi

*Stupid AI, part Deaux: This really has nothing to do with strategy for Persia, but bears mentioning. Carthage managed to build Hadrian's Wall... in Caralis (on Sardinia)... when Olbia was already past size six. In other words, they got exactly one set of city walls out of it.

[Solomwi]

Does it double just wall strength or all city-size bonuses, as well? It's never felt like the size-7+ city bonus was doubled, but that definatley doesn't mean that isn't the case.

But yeah, either way, I stand by my section title.

[jatf]

Just finished this last night for the first time. Have to say that the advice on here helped a lot. Some good tips from the demogame as well though. I forgot that warriors upgraded into legions.

JATF