I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario...

[Naokaukodem]

Gameplay-wise the culture expansion due to jew "sacrifices" would mean that those executions would influence the people so that they shall not let enemies pass... this seems insane and silly.
Or would it simulate the collaboration and / or the antis-emitism? Well i don't think that the murders of jews may have been influencing, only their arrestations. Two different things.

[Plotinus]

What's so great about free speech? I think Americans have got it quite wrong allowing KKK leaders and suchlike to say whatever they want. In Britain it is illegal to say anything that leads to racial hatred, whilst in Germany it's illegal even to own a copy of "Mein Kampf", even for academic research, and to be honest I think that's much more sensible.

[Solomwi]

Plotinus. I'd hate to think of an America where such structures are in place and precedents have been set... then the Baptists get elected to office! Oh, the horror.

[Antrine]

Solomwi speaks volumes of wisdom!!!!!!!
No matter, I would easily rather endure this distasteful thread than even think any 'authority' could wield the censors' pen.

I'd rather eat your 'sh#t', keeping to my 'choice' to do so, than ever have it institutionalized and spoon fed by a 'political power that be'. Especially religious ones masquerating 'as inspired of God'.

So as you can see we are and the world with us are in 'deep do-do mire' with the current rendition of the 'burn'in Bush' line of crap!

[Mr Justice]

i think this topic has strayed way off its intended topic,
tbh tis hitting close to peoples current philosical opinions of current world events.

personally im more in line with Plotinus,
i see Solomwi's and Antrine's points, but imo u are leaving out one major aspect of "censorship".

thats the self imposed variety. but america is big country, and certainly im aware its people hold beliefs that more or less cover every side of the coin.

[Last Conformist]

It's been pointed out so many times already, but it is kinda strange that mention of the Holocaust provokes so much stronger an emotional response than that of any other genocide or mass murder.

[Solomwi]

True, LC. I'm not going to claim it's true, but speaking personally, the Holocaust just seems so much more calculated, cold-blooded and gratuitous than other genocides.

[Sinapus]

Originally posted by Solomwi
True, LC. I'm not going to claim it's true, but speaking personally, the Holocaust just seems so much more calculated, cold-blooded and gratuitous than other genocides.

Probably because it was the first one to use factory methods to exterminate their victims.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Antrine
Well, Kucinich, why then don't we just cook up a fast game of genocide, gee there are lots of handy examples throughout our human history, and why stop with 'ritual sacrifice' when we could get culture points for torture chambers and the like?

Maybe my tastes are little funny, however for a game this is not what I want to simulate. However, it is also well noted 'war mongering' without honor or rules is also good company with some of the above, but please can we not keep it 'abstract' and at least 'pretend' to a little nobility in our thinking.

I feel some hypocrisy with 'war gaming' except there is no blood and agony of merit and play is just like chess! An exercise of mind. However, ideas count and certainly have impact when it comes to genocide or fostering any feeling of condoning it.

Why should you not be able to do such things?

It's just a game. A way of simulating history in any way you choose. Just because someone would choose to 'sacrifice' Jew units as the Nazis doesn't mean anything. It's just a way of recreating things in a fictional atmosphere.

As Kucinich said, would you take out war? Do you know how much misery and suffering and destruction and horror war has caused throughout history? More than the Holocaust or genocide or terrorism. The sheer 'badness' of war outweighs that of anything else you have mentioned.

Just because you find systemized genocide to be horrible doesn't make it any worse than something like the 30 Years' War, or the Plague (which is also represented) or the rest of WWII. There's no reason to single any one of them out as "bad taste" because this is just a game, not a political statement.

All of that having been said, I don't expect to ever see something like that in a game or expect Firaxis to include it. I just don't think you have a right to say what can and cannot and should and should not be in this game or even be discussed.

[Antrine]

'It's just a game'..... um, maybe, however ideas are not and symbolism seems to count heavy in some peoples mind, especially those 'party' to the game.

All human history is littered with tragedy, garbage everywhere, however again I choose idealism however hypocritical I may yet be, over being just plain crass and insensitive to what still are current events.

But thankyou Trip, I am still 'not' voting for censorship, just the company I keep. And if you make such a monstrous game, have fun, post where you can! I'm sure this mild mannored philosopher will weigh in a piece of cake compared to the onslaught you will not doubt be confronted with.

Happy Modding!

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Antrine
'It's just a game'..... um, maybe, however ideas are not and symbolism seems to count heavy in some peoples mind, especially those 'party' to the game.

All human history is littered with tragedy, garbage everywhere, however again I choose idealism however hypocritical I may yet be, over being just plain crass and insensitive to what still are current events.

But thankyou Trip, I am still 'not' voting for censorship, just the company I keep. And if you make such a monstrous game, have fun, post where you can! I'm sure this mild mannored philosopher will weigh in a piece of cake compared to the onslaught you will not doubt be confronted with.

Happy Modding!

I know many people who have been victims of or part of something that would be considered 'taboo' for a game of this sort. However, I understand that it's just a game, and when I nuke or bomb or raze a city it only represents something abstract.

The goal of the game is to simulate history and the choices leaders throughout history had to make. In most games having a "Nazi sacrifices Jew unit" would not be appropriate in a historical context. However, when considering a certain environment it may be an important part of it. And its your right to ignore or respond negatively to a scenario or mod that includes it.

I understand that some people may be upset about this, but there will always be situations like that. If I personally find myself offended by something, then I just find something else to worry about. No one is forcing anyone to read this thread or make a mod including this idea or play a mod that includes it.

That's why there's nothing wrong with this thread, and why the 1st Amendment is in place - nobody is forcing you to listen or to participate. If you don't want to be involved then move on.

[Antrine]

You are correct, I do not want to be involved.

Sincerely,
Happy Modding

[Vince278]

The Meso-American scenario was portraying the sacrificing of captured military units. Nazis murdering Jews was nothing of the sort. The Jews, as such, are not "units" in civ. The closest you can come in Civ to portraying that is to kill off parts of your own population. That would be counterproductive in real life as well as Civ.
I guess what I'm trying to say is what makes the premise of this thread so stupid is a sick idea of rewarding the Nazis for the killing of Jews. After all, why would you create a scenario where you are penalized for an optional action? Senseless.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by Vince278
The closest you can come in Civ to portraying that is to kill off parts of your own population. That would be counterproductive in real life as well as Civ.

Kind of like switching into Fascism, with it's forced resettlement flag?

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Solomwi
Kind of like switching into Fascism, with it's forced resettlement flag?

I was thinking it was more like dark rituals in Master of Magic (MoM) where you sacrifice population for mana.