I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario...

[Xorbon]

If you want something a little less offensive, and probably more realistic, how about an SS unit with the enslave ability? Defeated units would be converted into workers. The workers could be used as slaves, or sacrificed for shields (as they can in the epic game). This would be much less offensive than having a "Jew" unit.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
Well the complete utter ruthless bad taste of this idea aside, one would successfully argue that the Nazi cleansing actually deprived them of a significant portion of a rich and deep internal culture (as well as a semblance of humanity). Thus gaining culture from such a move makes no sense. The fact that this is being considered makes less.

edit: the comma splice.

Gameplay-wise, it's effect is to actually force the Nazi player to do this in order to close culture gaps between cities left by conquest - hindering the player.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Xorbon
If you want something a little less offensive, and probably more realistic, how about an SS unit with the enslave ability? Defeated units would be converted into workers. The workers could be used as slaves, or sacrificed for shields (as they can in the epic game). This would be much less offensive than having a "Jew" unit.

It probably wouldn't be called "Jew"

btw, this was only a half-serious suggestion; it just came to mind while I was thinking about the editor, so I posted it. I personally don't plan on using it (as I don't plan on making a WWII scenario in the first place).

Wrt it being disgusting and "this thread should be deleted", all I have is - should war be taken out of the game too?

[Vince278]

Re: I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario...

Originally posted by Kucinich
You know the sacrifice thing in the Mesoamerica Conquest? Have Nazi units have a chance of enslaving to a Jew unit, which can be sacrificed for "culture". Is necessary to fill in the culture gaps left by conquest (since the Nazi's would be under Fascism, rushing a temple wouldn't work).

If you really want to be realistic the Nazis should LOSE culture when they sacrifice. I can't believe this thread is still open.

[Antrine]

Well, Kucinich, why then don't we just cook up a fast game of genocide, gee there are lots of handy examples throughout our human history, and why stop with 'ritual sacrifice' when we could get culture points for torture chambers and the like?

Maybe my tastes are little funny, however for a game this is not what I want to simulate. However, it is also well noted 'war mongering' without honor or rules is also good company with some of the above, but please can we not keep it 'abstract' and at least 'pretend' to a little nobility in our thinking.

I feel some hypocrisy with 'war gaming' except there is no blood and agony of merit and play is just like chess! An exercise of mind. However, ideas count and certainly have impact when it comes to genocide or fostering any feeling of condoning it.

[Arnelos]

Well, considering that there were several threads with several hundred posts each in the C3C Beta testing forum arguing about whether a friggin' RAISED HAND was too explicit a symbol of the Nazi party for the Fascism tech and government icon, you can probably imagine how people would respond to a game mechanic that had you SACRIFICE JEWS if playing as the Nazis...

So yeah... utterly tasteless and I doubt people would respond very well to it...

[Mr Justice]

imo i dont agree with the principle of killing the "jews" to raise culture. its historically incorrect. the killing of the jews was never widlely known to majority of germans at the time. so i cant see how culture can be increased by the realtively unknown (at the time they took place) of mass murder.

however u cant lambaste Kucinich for raising this. PC has to draw the line somewhere. it was an historical event. any scenario for WW2 would be historically incorrect if this feature wasnt included.

indeed one could argue that the very acts of the holocost could have contributed to germany losing the war. think of lost reasorces and the military that was required to perform it could have been sent to the field instaed.

the cause of the holocaust was one mans insanity. certainly the current game engine cant handle correctly the effects of this act.

comparing it to the aztecs is not applicable imo. there was a religious need according to the aztec religion. and as temples, cathedrals ect show, religion is a tool to be used.

imo to implement the holocaust could u have plague like effects on all "german" cities (to reduce population) and and mabey increase unit costs to repersent the unseen units adminersteing the holocaust? and as a benifit to the "germans", mabey permanaent mobalization?

i dont know.
as civ players though we are far worse than hitler, he has an excuse (madness), we do all our genocide, mass starvation, scorched earth policies without a thought.

the world is and was and (probably) always will be a BAD place, as players we are encourged to be BAD for the benifits it brings to our CIV, historically this has generally proven to be correct. not in hitlers case thank god.

[Solomwi]

Historically incorrect or historically incomplete? Also, I'd limit that to European WWII scenarios.

We're all hooked on a game that rewards being a psychotic bastard and thuggery, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Somehow, I think Kucinich knew before he posted how tasteless it was (as evidenced by the thread title), and was just "thinking in print", so to speak. Keep the ideas coming and we'll all weed through the ones that need to be discarded.

[Theseus]

I'm with Solomonwi here... it was an idea, and characterized as such, in line with the historical nature of the game.

There are certainly games that glorify the base nature of the human species; Grand Theft Auto comes to mind.

But Civ is about understanding, and playing, the vast sweep of human history... and we would not be honest, nor complete, not to address the bad alongside the good.

The Holocaust is a tough one, sure, but heck, I'm Jewish myself, and I wouldn't want to play out a really detailed scenario of WW2, across ALL of its aspects, without the bad parts.

Good for you, Kucinich... keep thinking!

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Theseus
But Civ is about understanding, and playing, the vast sweep of human history... and we would not be honest, nor complete, not to address the bad alongside the good.

[LzPrst]

I find it odd that a lot of people request/demand the closure of this thread. and a lot of americans specifically. I thought freedom of speach was one of your most valued ideals...
And just because its horrible, bad taste or politically incorrect doesnt mean it shouldnt be talked about, rather on the contrary. whenever something becomes taboo we lose the possibility of working it out.
"Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Back to game functions, if this was to be implemented, the political discussion aside, there could be jewish "worker" units located in cities around europe that cant be used by the nazis for any other purpose than "sacrificing", which they would need a special "improvement" or something to do. each sacrifice would give a trade and production bonus (confiscated property and slave labor). other civs would benefit from these in extra trade or something. There could be a separate victory condition for the allies, such and such a number of jews have to survive in order for it to be a decisive victory.

[Last Conformist]

The problem with simulating the Holocaust is that unless it benefited the 3rd Reich, players would avoid it, whereas in actuality it was carried out against the material interests of the Nazi state. How do you motivate players to act irrationally? Indoctrinating them to hate virtual Jews doesn't seem like a workable idea.

[spy14]

This is an interesting thread but the history in question is too recent (a mere 60 years ago) to be palatable. Its a bit like suggesting an Arab suicide bomber unit be added.

[Sinapus]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
Well the complete utter ruthless bad taste of this idea aside, one would successfully argue that the Nazi cleansing actually deprived them of a significant portion of a rich and deep internal culture (as well as a semblance of humanity). Thus gaining culture from such a move makes no sense. The fact that this is being considered makes less.

edit: the comma splice.

No, exterminating Jews (and anything else they didn't like or was in the way) enhanced the Nazi culture. So it makes a very sick sort of sense.

I still wouldn't want to make (or play) this scenario, unless it was on the other side.

I'd rather see something like a Battle of the Atlantic campaign where you use the treasure-type units and move them across the Atlantic to somewhere in England to represent all the supplies sent from the USA and Canada to the UK. In the way: the German's small surface fleet and a whole lot of U-Boats. The sticking point is that in order to move treasure units, they have to be grabbed by another unit. Maybe make a bunch of "truck" or "cargo bin" units or something?

[Cerbykins]

Alpha Centauri's supply crawlers come to mind