I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario...

[Kuciwalker]

... at least in Conquests.

You know the sacrifice thing in the Mesoamerica Conquest? Have Nazi units have a chance of enslaving to a Jew unit, which can be sacrificed for "culture". Is necessary to fill in the culture gaps left by conquest (since the Nazi's would be under Fascism, rushing a temple wouldn't work).

[Antrine]

I smell 'bad taste' brewing on this one, I pass...

Too close, how about something far, far away .................................................. .......................

[Aqualung71]

I most whole-heartedly second Antrine on this one. Bad taste indeed and insensitive to say the least

I suggest this thread be deleted.

[Switch]

It is sick, and bad taste indeed. But the Aztecs did much the same thing, and this is represented in the game.

Nevertheless, that was hundreds of years ago, while the Holocaust was only decades ago. At this time, it is still much too sensitive a topic to be so casually displayed in a game. Perhaps by the year 2500, but now is not a good time.

Perhaps never will be a good time, as the atrocity that can be unfittingly summed up in one word, Holocaust, was much worse than the sacrifices of the Aztecs...

Either way, if you do think it fitting for a mod, then I would suggest that you keep it as a private mod.

[Aqualung71]

In any case, ritual blood-sacrifice can hardly be compared to Jewish extermination. Again, delete this thread before some of our Israeli friends start reading it.

[Dis]

if you want to make a scenario like that, go ahead. Just don't expect anyone to host the damn thing.

True there are differences between sacrifices and holocaust. But civilians dying is civilians dying. The game engine doesn't see it any other way. Although that's the pinch, the game engine does lack the proper ability. As those enslaved units are created by attacking and conquering military units, which isn't accurate, as the jews weren't really in the military. The game engine would have to have the ability to create those enslaved units from the city population. And to be historically accurate, it would be your own city population. Why would you intentionally lower your city population?

[Antrine]

Well, let me clarify even a little further by 'bad taste' and 'far far away'. For me even Aztec ritual sacrifice as depicted in C3C is BAD TASTE, if not just ask someone from those races! They are yet with us.

Anyway I also think rush pop build is somewhat tacky.

Far, far away means something akin to 'dark elves' sacrificing 'knights' in a FANTASY. We have plenty of challenges here to forge global tolerance and kindness without this kind of careless rudeness.

Just my thinking, and I hope it represents more and not less of popular opinion.

[Dis]

rush pop build is a little different. It means you are pushing your slave population so hard, they just keel over due to over exertion, hazardous working conditions etc.

[Antrine]

Agreed, so I modded to be either early time period government or a fantasy CIV, however why is Nazism so blessed with this foolishness, pop build? Concentration camps are a nefarious abberation of humanity gone bad, however what was produced by these camps besides deep despair? The Communists engaged in forced labor more with prisoners of war, however again even still does that really account for pop build?

Building the walls of China certainly accounts for pop build! Building religious pyraminds in SouthEast Asia (very ancient) also accounts for same. However this does not still account for this insensitiveness and just plain crappy thinking.

Sorry Kucinich, but I think a sincere apology in order!

[Last Conformist]

I'll be contrarian and say it does not bother me.

The game engine already encourages ethnic cleansing and the killing of the civilians of enemy cities. How would this be worse?

[Antrine]

Like I said, I hope popular opinion is more kind-hearted and thoughtful, even if appearing not.

I remain adamant; this just stinks! So I will conduct myself accordingly. It is very unfortunate that these game designers decided to add 'ritual sacrifice' for to gain 'culture'. Ug, Firaxis needs to have it's 'heart' examined. Yuk, yuk, yuk.....

It just wasn't necessary or well enough examined 'CULTURALLY'! There are and remain many, many other useful things that could be done to improve this game.

If the 'not called committee' for CIV4 is lurking, I strongly suggest they flag this feature as one they YANK out!

Sincerely,

[TheArsenal]

Well the complete utter ruthless bad taste of this idea aside, one would successfully argue that the Nazi cleansing actually deprived them of a significant portion of a rich and deep internal culture (as well as a semblance of humanity). Thus gaining culture from such a move makes no sense. The fact that this is being considered makes less.

edit: the comma splice.

[Dis]

but I would like to address the issue of unpleasant historical events in civ games.

Sitting here in the 21st century, we can say that certain ideas should never be in a game, because they aren't politically correct.

but the fact is some of these things did happen. And if you want to make a semi-historical game, you should include them.

I don't support including anything like the halocaust because it had no benefit to society. As the post above me states, it did not raise culture, and in fact, hurt the german society. Who knows what kind of economy hit they took (less workers, less consumers etc.). So there is no reason to implement this into a game.

Slavery is another issue entirely. This did have a big impact on history, and has an impact on game mechanics. I think they did a fairly decent job of handling slavery without actually using the slave word.

Ritual Sacrifice is another issue. A cultural boost seems strange. wouldn't a happiness boost be more appropiate. Well maybe not. It can't please the population too much to see their own sacrificed. Although maybe it would scare them into working harder, so maybe a production boost. Either way I don't think this practice was widespread enough to warrant use in a Civ game aside from scenarios such as mesoamerican.

But slavery is something that should be used in a civ game. I stand by that.

[Antrine]

This is a game first and facts whatever they be are hind leg second. Yes slavery is handled tastefully, kudos to Firaxis, since I have no problem bashing them. Ritual Sacrifice needs to have a 'reverse culture' tag attached to it. So a least players following this course will be sure to wreck their empire, which is historically accurate.

Additionally, raising cities needs a serious re-visit. Modified at least in steps, with conditions and mostly an editor off choice coupled with a very strong Empire wide cultural hit for every city raised whether ones own or someone elses.

Maybe this tasteless thread will yet bear some useful fruit.....

[Cerbykins]

Technically, like all other 'culture' in Civ, 'Nazi culture' would only be culture to them and no-one else. Still, the whole idea of the scenario, good in use of the technical aspects of C3C as it is...maybe hits a bit TOO close to home, at least as a scenario...