Emperor games C3C: how to improve your skills

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Dominae
Did you do your own research, or go for the "steal everything" route?

I didn't actually steal anything; all techs were through Great Library, Theory of Evolution, or research/trade. Some of them got mighty expensive though (I think I bought Flight for about 12,000).

I could have made it out of the Ancient Era in a timely fashion through trade and research alone, but I thought not having the Scientific boost made the GL a necessity. The GL allowed me to amass a ton of cash and got me all the way to Gunpowder.

Wonder-wise, I built the normal OCC set of Colossus, GL, Copes, Newts, and ToE. I also snagged Hanging Gardens and Sistine Chapel for happies. I agree with you, Dom, that the Mausoleum is an excellent way to go, but someone beat me to it.

Not being Scientific was also an obstacle entering the Industrial Age and the Modern Times. Playing OCC, you really need that first tech; it often can be sold for big cash or traded for the freebie that one of the other Scientific Civs got.

Regarding your initial question about stealing, I usually find it only really needed when going for the spacerace, especially when a KAI has developed; plus it's hard to keep your rivals gracious if you keep on getting caught.

I'm interested, Dom, what did you find to be the biggest challenge with this game as OCC?

Talk to you later.

- TT

[Dominae]

I found the early-game to be exceedingly easy; there was never any doubt I was going to get the Wonders I wanted, and I was keeping up in the tech race without the Great Library (in fact, I was considering not building it and just trading to keep afloat). The Seafaring trait plus the great starting location were the major culprits.

The mid-game went well until I lost Copernicus', which is a major setback in most OCC games. This was probably the most difficult part of the game because I had to figure out how I was going to win with limited research and trade potential. Then I decided to try something new (the "steal everything" strat), and I breathed easier when it started working.

The late-game was difficult in the sense I had to balance between leaving enough gpt in the AIs' pockets to keep the tech rate up (I wanted to win fast) and making enough money myself to steal everything. On numerous occasions I rejected large gpt deals for techs just to keep the AIs researching (many went into Fascism and stopped researchign altogether, it seemed). Had I hoarded gpt, victory would have been more certain, but certainly a lot slower. Too bad it's not possible to directly translate Gold from trades into Science!

By the way, I avoided the Hanging Gardens because I wanted to trigger my GA later on with Hoover.

Well done on making the "classic" OCC strat work for you in this game.


Dominae

[ToeTruck]

I agree with you that the Ancient Era was very easy. Quick contact and a couple of key tech trades and I was off an running.

Regarding the Hanging Gardens, I plain forgot about the Golden Age. I was like "Whoa! I'm nowhere near ready for a GA." Luckily, I was able to leverage it into Sistine Chapel so I was pretty well set for happiness the whole game through.

I'm very curious about your "steal everything" approach. I've imagined that you could combine research, trades, and espionage to do very well, but I can't quite picture stealing "everything". How many techs to you really steal? And, was there a point at which you just stopped research entirely?

Also, you're quite right about Fascism. It's a game-killer for OCC; I've played other games in which *all* my rivals are in Fascism. All they do is fight. They don't even bother connecting luxuries. Playing OCC, you want the market flooded with luxuries and research to be high.

In this game, I built all embassies towards the end and found that Greece was the only viable non-Fascist state. A few turns later, it really started to take off - plus since it was on a big island, none of the Fascists could mount a reasonable attack against it. I think the AI often misplays Fascism, getting stuck in a "nowhere to go" situation, but it's unwilling to try another government.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Good to see you are still playing. I enjoyed your Occ runs.

Thanks vmxa1. I've still been playing, just lurking instead of posting.

I thought of you while playing the Viking game a bit ago. I was thinking - "All those warmongers must be loving this."

That game was a hoot, BTW.

- TT

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ToeTruck
I'm very curious about your "steal everything" approach. I've imagined that you could combine research, trades, and espionage to do very well, but I can't quite picture stealing "everything". How many techs to you really steal?

From my report a few pages back:

Below is a list of all the techs I stole, each "Carefully". Everything from Steel onward I used a Spy for:

Physics
Theory of Gravity
Steam Power
Electricity
Replaceable Parts
Scientific Method
Steel
Radio
Flight
Motorized Transportation
Computers
Fission

The other Industrial and Modern era techs I traded for with the less-advanced nations, using the techs I stole as bait. In all, I failed a handful of Diplomatic attempts (at the cost of ~8000 Gold), and an equivalent number of Spy attempts (at the cost of ~16000 Gold).

Originally posted by ToeTruck
And, was there a point at which you just stopped research entirely?

The last tech I researched was Navigation (everyone else was around Physics at the time). After that I was unable to compete in the tech race.


Dominae

[ducki]

OCC scares me.
Damn you guys are amazing.

[Dominae]

Umm, for those of you that are wondering: I stole all techs "Safely", not "Carefully". I forgot the name of the one with the highest probability of success. Anyway, it's the one that costs the most.


Dominae

[Aqualung71]

Finally got back to this game last night and finished it off.

Continuing on from my last post at 1330AD, the rest of my game was fairly uneventful (and tedious). Like others, I had maintained a defensive military for most of the game, relying largely on Swiss Mercs for defence and therefore not giving a hoot about my lack of Saltpeter. And also maintaining decent garrisons in my cities on the Viking border in the mistaken belief that culture flips were a concern....then again, Ragnar didn't invade, so the possible deterrent value was useful.

Things went pretty smoothly and by the time the early industrial age had passed the game was really about just finding ways to boost research to get to Fission quickly and build the UN (ie, rush remaining Universities and add spare-workers to cities that were still under their pop limit, build limited Hospitals in some coastal cities and add more workers, mass-building 12 Docks in one turn). Once all the known buildings were constructed (satisfying the builder in me), everything was switched over to Infantry as an invasion deterrent.

By the late Industrial age William’s compact powerhouse Democracy was finally pulling away from the crowd in terms of research, though he was still sucked in regularly by the 400gpt deals that Portugal kept offering for techs. At one point we were earning 1,000gpt+ from Portugal alone! This allowed us to continue researching at 100%, continue to spend 600g per turn on building rushes for the latter half of the Industrial ages (after which we gave up rushing as it simply no longer mattered), and still build up cash of > 20,000g by game-end.

By the time the Modern age appeared, the AI belatedly realized it was in serious trouble and wars started. Unfortunately the AI didn’t realize that it was the Netherlands who was the biggest threat, so crafty William remained at peace for a few more turns.

Eventually though it was inevitable. Having gathered a bunch of MPP’s over a few turns to move attitudes to gracious, we were bound to cross paths with someone. Insignificant but gracious Babylon and Carthage (long time neighbour, friend and trading partner) both declared war on the polite Aztecs, so my hand was forced. There’s one vote gone, and I presumed Alexander would vote for himself.

Anyway, that was pretty much it. Diplomatic victory 1545AD. 8 votes to 2 – Aztecs voted for Greece, as did Alexander. No abstentions – "William the Benign" was the friend of all (well, almost) and could have made it 9:1 if the Aztecs had been able to stay out of war a little longer and they only voted for Alexander to spite me. In hindsight, of course they were all going to vote for William. "Beware of Greeks bearing......" - umm, err, well.....just, beware of Greeks! The only Dutch conflict was, as I said earlier, when Greece declared war in the Middle ages for no discernable reason, and killed themselves on our Swiss pikes on the 3 occasions they landed (triggering our GA).

Interestingly, most of the civ’s must have been of similar population. While I was always 9th or 10th in area, my population for most of the game was 1st, but slipped to 5th by the Modern Age. On the victory screen however, I had 13% and Greece had 14%. So I was a little concerned Greece would slip below Portugal and I would be facing the amiable Henry in the elections. But that didn’t happen. Ho hum.

This game was useful for me since it was the first time I was really able to implement the MM lessons I learnt from AU501. But somehow being a totally docile peace-mongerer doesn’t quite do it for me. And diplomatic victory tends to leave me flat. As in, “So that’s it? What about all the expensive hardware I just built – my general’s will KILL me!”

Having said that though, I don’t have the patience to go back and continue the game as MS suggested. It will take way too long. Out of interest MS, how long did it take you to play through from your diplomatic victory (at 1660?) to your "annihilation" victory in 1956 with all that warmongering in between. Must have taken a while.

No screenshots, because.....well, just because.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ToeTruck


I thought of you while playing the Viking game a bit ago. I was thinking - "All those warmongers must be loving this."

That game was a hoot, BTW.

- TT

Well Theseus love the Vikes. I have not used them much, but it is not pleasant to see a galley with a beserker or two show up early in the game on your coastal city.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage


No, the bug is OFF.
Yes, I know. Just building city improvements it's so 'boring' that I trade a lot just for passing my time.
In fact, the secret of winning at Emperor is TRADING. Don't hold on any tech (except for a few turns if you plan to get a GW) and re-sell it immediately to everybody. With the gold, keep you citizens (moderately) happy = more gold and research at 70-80%. Then sell again. It's called a positive feedback.
Also, don't research 'useless' techs like Astronomy, Ironclads, Fascism etc., you will get them for free later on...
But I'm sure you all know about it anyway

I actually did quite well researching on my emperor games i guess that's why i don't have your treasury. I prefer it to my 2k bank account. hehe.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Thriller
Finally got back to this game last night and finished it off.

As in, “So that’s it? What about all the expensive hardware I just built – my general’s will KILL me!”

Having said that though, I don’t have the patience to go back and continue the game as MS suggested. It will take way too long. Out of interest MS, how long did it take you to play through from your diplomatic victory (at 1660?) to your "annihilation" victory in 1956 with all that warmongering in between. Must have taken a while.

why did you build your 'expensive hardware' the first place, when you were going for a diplo victory anyway? I just upgraded my spearmen directly to riflemen.
As for the time between 1660AD and 1656AD, I don't rememeber exactly, but it took me, well, maybe 20/25 hours. As I had already all the city improvements in my core cities, I just switched to 'expensive hardware'. Each city with 2 shield/turn or less went on a long-term project (Aegis cruiser/MA) and then on wealth.
As usual, the logistics proved to be the most time-consuming, but I used only radar artilley to bombard the enemy, not my navy (too may ships, in fact).
My most embarassing errors were my aircraft carriers (useless) and the lack of transports (I left behind about 10 armies before hitting the Aztec). Not that it really matterd, anyway.

[Mountain Sage]

Dominae and TT,

What was the size of your military in your OCC games?

[Dominae]

Warrior
Warrior*
Conscript Warrior from Goody Hut*
Swiss Mercenary*
Cruiser
Cruiser*
Edit: 2 Curraghs, too.

*'s indicate units I disbanded to save on upkeep costs.

Oh, and handful of Privateers for fun (all got sunk).

[ducki]

Hang on, are you saying that's all the military you had ever?


You OCCers are freaking nuts. Just when I think I'm learning a lot of stuff, someone does something insane like this. Now I guess I have to try to find "guides" on OCC and 5CC, neither of which I've ever tried. (Edit: Yes, I know, read and study AARs of other folks' OCCs and 5CCs, that still means tracking them down and "studying" them.)

Seriously, though, 6 units total, not counting your Privateers, for the whole game?

[Dominae]

Well, if the Vikings had declared war, Amsterdam would have fallen no matter what (at the very least the war would be so costly that I would stop being competitive in other areas, and thus lose anyway). So there's no point in building up a military for that eventuality.

The other civs would be easier to handle: I could have built up a decent navy to prevent attack from the overseas ones, and signed an Alliance with the Vikings versus the Carthaginians or Hittites. But the likelihood of these civs attacking is more or less equal to that of the Vikings attacking (actually less because the Vikings are pretty aggressive). So whatever I do to keep the Vikings from attacking, I might as well do it for the all the other civs as well. Thus no need for a military.

You might argue that I would have needed a military in order to be safe when getting other civs to declare war on each other. This is true, but I never wanted to do this because I wanted everyone to be at peace to keep the tech rate high.

I'm perfectly aware that with so few units, disaster could have struck. But this has only happened to me once in all the OCC games I've played. This is just one of those things that you learn about the AI that allows you to play better (like predicting where the AI will move its units).


Dominae