"Skip First Turn" Not So Great?

[Falconius]

I just played the WWII Pacific scenario's fist couple of turns as Japan. Since the Allies are supposed to skip their first turn, I figured I had a double turn to start. With this in mind, I left a lot of units in vulnerable positions, expecting to make changes on the second part of my "double turn".

But to my surprise, the Allies moved after my first turn, sinking loaded transports and capturing artillery in the process!

I checked the editor and it lists each Ally as Players 1 thru 4, and Japan as Player 5. So I guess by skipping the Allies, it only means that Japan goes first! There is no double turn, and the only advantage Japan gets out of this is that it gets 50 turns where the Allies only get 49.

I'm going to edit this and replay when I get the time.

Anyone else notice this?

[Brundlefly]

Yeah, I noticed that too. Be more careful next time.

[planetfall]

So you like to double post the same question!!

What made you to assume Japan would get double first turns?

Rules set up so Allies play after Japan. Thus,

As Japan
Turn one, you move
Turn one, AI's move

As Allies civ,
Turn one, you don't move
Turn one, AI's move
Turn two you can move


Japan gets a lot of advantages:
-- a strong military
-- fleet in position for first strike
-- by going for VP you should be able to win by turn 30. In theory it is possible for Japan to win by turn 20 if keeps VP and military conquests going.
--TWO armies
-- 369 shields more than US
-- 7 carriers to US 4
-- 21 bombers US 3
-- 20 destroyers to US 12
-- 14 juicy US subs make easy VP targets
-- 12 heavy cruisers to US 6
-- 11 marines to US 0
-- 8 transports to US 1


AI Japan hits Pearl and runs. Surely you can do better and make US island hoping and recapture of VP's more difficult.

I don't see with all those advantages why you need to edit the rules. All you have to do is delay US and capture VP's from the other 3 weak armies.


-- PF

[Falconius]

Originally posted by planetfall
So you like to double post the same question!!

What made you to assume Japan would get double first turns?

Rules set up so Allies play after Japan. Thus,

As Japan
Turn one, you move
Turn one, AI's move

As Allies civ,
Turn one, you don't move
Turn one, AI's move
Turn two you can move

AI Japan hits Pearl and runs. Surely you can do better and make US island hoping and recapture of VP's more difficult.

I don't see with all those advantages why you need to edit the rules. All you have to do is delay US and capture VP's from the other 3 weak armies.

It's not a double post if I post on another web site! Not everybody goes to both, only sickos like us!

I'm not making the argument that Japan needs more help. I'm saying that the new so-called feature in the editor "Skip First Turn" turns out to be a non-feature because we already had the ability to set a player to move first. And that's all this does!

To quote you again:

Turn one, you don't move
Turn one, AI's move
Turn two you can move

How is this different than:

Turn one, AI's move
Turn one you can move

The only difference is the number of the turn!

OKay, I'm done ranting.

[Elias]

hey I placed all my aircraft on wake Island and well ill let history right the rest

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Falconius


It's not a double post if I post on another web site! Not everybody goes to both, only sickos like us!

Yep, our crack addiction is a game.

I'm not making the argument that Japan needs more help. I'm saying that the new so-called feature in the editor "Skip First Turn" turns out to be a non-feature because we already had the ability to set a player to move first. And that's all this does!

I misunderstood

To quote you again:

Option A

Turn one, you don't move
Turn one, AI's move
Turn two you can move

How is this different than:

Option B

Turn one, AI's move
Turn one you can move

The only difference is the number of the turn!

OKay, I'm done ranting.

1st-- re quote posted on civfan. The scenario write up was poor. I can see how it was confusing.

2nd-- Under Option B you can move units BUT you can do the rest of your turn. I did in the WW2 scenario:
-- change build priority
-- set research path
-- trade with allies
-- rush improvements
-- change city citizens tile working

Being able to do all this before the Japanese attack is very helpful. The game would be different if my first turn was totally skipped and I had to do all that on the second turn when I had full control. As it was I barely hung on to Manilla.

Does this make sense?

-- PF

[Dis]

USA goes first, that is why Japan does not get double turns.

But one thing I noticed when I was testing a hotseat game is the U.S. is able to move on turn 0!!!!!! This isn't good for multiplaying purposes.

[Falconius]

Originally posted by planetfall
Does this make sense?

Yes, it does now. Thanks for that explanation. The "Skip first turn" is not what I first thought it was, but it's not as useless as I posted earlier. I see now that the Allies get a kind of "Half Turn".

[Jon Shafer]

Why should Japan get two turns in a row?

You can already do enough damage on one turn with your "surprise" attack. Each turn represents a month. I'm sure the Allies would have some capability to react within a month...

[Fried-Psitalon]

Actually, I believe the record for winning this scenario was either 8 or 11 turns... ::think:: Maybe someone else from the beta remembers. I know I got it in eleven, but someone else might've gotten it in 8....

[Jon Shafer]

I think I got it in 16 the first time I played it.

[Mad Bomber]

The main problem with the WW2 scenerio is that the Allies have very little chance to win the game (or to launch any meaningful counteratack) . The US has very little production (and the Pacific theater actually had more resources devoted to it than the European) also the English, Chinese, and Dutch are almost worthless.

Playing the Japanese is not the problem, its playing as the Allies where this scenerio falls far short of acceptable.

[Swissy]

All the Conquests were tested to see if they were winable at regent or higher level. One playtester won the WWII conquest with all the nations, most at Sid level.

[kring]

I have won at Sid level with all the playable civs in WWII in the Pacific, and could probably do it with the Dutch.

I launched all sorts of counterattacks as the Allies. Drafting and not building unnecessary units is the key. I never built a ship or plane unit regardless of civ I played (Japan or any of the Allies), only ground units. Also, I didn't see much need for tech research in the game so I keep tech research low and use the extra gold to cash rush.

[Dis]

struggle for the Allies?

not as the human player.

True I only played Regent level, but I easily, not only easily, but very easily won. And the production is amazing of the U.S. cities- especially when they grow and you improve terrain. One thing I did do was shell out some workers. I used Porland- they can shell out workers 1 a turn!. build some mines, roads, and railroads- you will see your production shoot up.

Beating the the Japanese AI playing as the U.S. should be no problem. Because the AI has no concept of naval sea dominance. After the initial onslaught the AI played conservative and concentrated on China. They had no idea how to defend against my island hopping.

Now I won't comment on human vs. human. That may be different.