FIRAXIS: A list of EASY fixes for the next C3C patch

[Kull]

Tech Trade Toggle Button

On the Player Setup Screen, PLEASE add a toggle for Tech Trading Allowed/Disallowed. It's a simple historical fact that Civilizations didn't trade Technological advances one for one in the manner represented in this game. Yes, knowledge was disseminated via trade routes, conquest, and theft, but those are NOT "barter". The idea of a Civilization game without Tech Trading may seem like Heresy, but I can guarantee it will add a whole new dimension to the game.

[alexman]

kwpulliam1973, I suspect your last suggestion involves some work. Workers actually get moved by doing nothing when they are on auto (it's like hitting the space bar). Undoing (or delaying) that move might not be worth the effort for a patch.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
The problem with giving out a starting ship is that it's not possible to ensure that a civ will start by the coast.

Good point. I was so happy with my solution there for a while!

And I suspect that teaching the AI how to perform suicide runs is outside the scope of a patch, although I hope I'm wrong.

I feel the same way. I would be happy if the AI would just build and use Curraghs a lot more frequently than they currently do. I can accept the fact that suicide missions will always be a human-only strategy; I cannot accept the fact that an entire unit is only useful to the human player.

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Uber Krux: asking to get your favorite unit improved is not the point of this thread. The Mayans are just fine as they are (if not a bit too strong versus Restless Barbs).

Catt: I'm sure the designers will filter out what's important and what's not. If I were them I would wait a little, because these boards are all about hype. I think we should all play a little more to see what's really problematic and what's not (you have no idea how happy I am to do this now that the game is stable!).


Dominae

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae

Catt: I'm sure the designers will filter out what's important and what's not. If I were them I would wait a little, because these boards are all about hype. I think we should all play a little more to see what's really problematic and what's not (you have no idea how happy I am to do this now that the game is stable!).

I'm sure they will, too. I just wanted (and want!) a voice added to the clamor that calls out for a quick patch, fixing the truly unintended consequences in the first release, believing that it would be a better approach than a later patch that addresses game balance issues that may or may not be terribly problematic.

Catt

[dexters]

Alexman, here's another fix for your list.

This one has to do with AI ships now bombarding only cities. It ties in with your lethal bombard request.

My suggesiton is essentially to return naval bombard to its previous state, and that was to bombard tile improvements.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=101359 <--more info in this thread.

[korn469]

alexman

there is a problem with your "make civil defense have a bombard value of 48"

buildings with a bombard value when a town changes into a city, that's why civil defense doesn't have a bombard defense value

[korn469]

oh yea my suggestion...

add a "lethal stealth attack toggle" to the editor
this way planes could knock out tanks, but not infantry

[Fried-Psitalon]

I must disagree with adding any more lethal land bombardment. No offense, but some of the items on your list are awfully SP-centered at the expense of MP, and while I know all the arguments that SP is the core and we MP folk are sneezes in a gale, C3C attempted to balance the two worlds equally.

Lethal land bombardment for boats would be tremendously abused by humans in SP and MP both - give me an aircraft carrier, a battleship, a transport and a single marine and I'll own every coastal city on the map in short order.

Also, the seafaring trait may be strong enough in SP without the sinking bonus, but that's pretty darn appealing in the MP world, since a lack of contact can utterly doom one team or the other in short order if the opposition doesn't have that problem.

I said this a lot during the beta, so I'm not surprised to say it again here: Let's look for fixes that don't come at the expense of either the SP or MP community, even if that may be more challenging, rather than one that robs Peter to pay Paul. Part of the reason MP *is* a sneeze in a gale is because that has gone on for too long!

Respectfully,
Your MP-Playing-Only Friedrich Psitalon

[notyoueither]

Good points, F-P.

Standard rules have to reflect SP, MP, and most playing styles. I think pointing out the killer bugs would be more appropriate; assuming that BA and Firaxis need to be held by the hand to find them...

They would be:

1. GPT trading bug. It's a game killer.

2. FPs being counter productive for corruption reduction, and additional FPs making it worse.

3. Anti-RCP solution to RCP. Let me put it this way, corruption was the enemy for too many from day 1. Solving RCP by increasing corruption is, shall I say... killing the baby to save the bath water.

4. Not really a bug, just an SP game killing design decision. The little boats that the AI doesn't build. Yep, that one. The AI has to use them or remove them.

5. Republic army support costs... I have no proof yet, but I'll find it if it is there. I can say that as a human it is extremely easy for me to kill myself by an unwise switch to Republic. I did it in my first game and had a 5gpt free and clear income for my reward. Spread that out among research and rushing! I am positive that the AI is commiting economic hari-kari with this more often than not.

[alexman]

Kull: tech trading can be disallowed with the current C3C editor. Just mark all techs as non-tradable.

Dexters: I'm sure they changed the AI naval bombardment priorities for a reason (WWII conquest) so I'm not sure they would want to change it back that easily. I thought that giving lethal land bombard to ships would make it OK to have the AI bombard cities instead of tiles, because it then would have a chance to kill units, not just damage them only to have them heal again. I no longer think lethal bombard is a good idea though.

Korn: I already stated the problem you mention with giving civil defense a bombard strength, along with the solution. Of course the real fix would be to have an extra editor flag "works for level-1 cities only" for walls.

Fried-Psitalon: Good point about giving lethal land bombard to ships. I see now that the increased movement of ships make it possible to strike a defender and conquer his coastal city before he has a chance to strike back, especially if that defender is the AI.

As for the seafaring trait, of course the reduced sinking chance is appealing in MP. It's appealing in SP. Too appealing for the human, but unused by the AI. The reduced sinking chances are already inherent in the seafaring trait from the +1 movement!

NYE: The 'killer bugs' are not very many, and I'm sure Firaxis will fix them soon enough. The additional point of this thread was to point out other possible fixes that are easy to implement in a patch. By the way, the Republic unit support should not be a problem for the AI on higher levels where it gets loads of free support.

[notyoueither]

How about for players of Monarch and lower? They don't count?

[alexman]

Sure they count, but the point of difficulty levels is to face a stronger AI as you go to harder levels, and a weaker AI at easier levels. Even Monarch-level AI Republic gets 8gpt plus 2gpt for each city.

Let's further investigate this Republic maintenance issue for the AI though.

[droid]

I would like the ability to modify the rebase multiplier in the editor.

[RomanGod]

Move the shield limit for unit costs back up to 10,000 shields! Plz!!

[dexters]

Dexters: I'm sure they changed the AI naval bombardment priorities for a reason (WWII conquest) so I'm not sure they would want to change it back that easily. I thought that giving lethal land bombard to ships would make it OK to have the AI bombard cities instead of tiles, because it then would have a chance to kill units, not just damage them only to have them heal again. I no longer think lethal bombard is a good idea though.

If that's the case, it will just be a waste of time for the AI to deploy its now large navies to bombard essentialyl useless targets. I had also theorized in my thread that it was probably WW II thar changed it, but do we want to let one scenario affect all epic games?

Perhaps a happy middle is for the AI to compromise. If there are less than X amount of tiles around a city, then it would be city bombardment. This would fit well with most of the island cities in the wWII conquests. Otherwise, bombard titles.

I still think this should be fixed since most people feel that the old AI navy was far more of a nusience when it actually destroyed something of value.