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**Panag** · October 21, 2003, 10:08

Originally posted by Spiffor
Thanks for the correction, Panag. I didn't know that

And as per the other Civilization profiles: Am I the only one who thinks the Portuguese and the Inca will rule ?

- Thanks to their UU and their traits, the Portuguese will be the gods of seaborne exploration. Better yet, they'll have the functional equivalent of a frigate tens of turns before magnetism gets invented (and cheaper too!). On Continent maps or Archipelagos, the Portuguese will absolutely rule

- The incas can build their UU right from the beginning, and it is the fastest unit until the explorer arrives (2 moves, ignores move costs of mountains and hills). Better yet, the Incas have a uber-pillager right at the beginning of the game, as it can defend itself. But what strikes me as especially stong with the Incas is the agricultural expansionist combo: not only they'll discover the world very quickly, they'll also be able to settle on it more quickly than the others. This means the Incas will have very soon a functioning and populated empire, whose cities will be well located

Talk about a heads up right from the beginning !

hi ,

, the Inca do indeed seems to have a good start , but knowing Firaxis a bit , what shall they have done to balance the game , .....

it seems to easy , .....

maybe the Inca are programmed not to give the maps out so easy , ....

btw , the japanese attitude towards foreigners lead to the US sending some warships over , and a deal was struck opening the country for trade , ....

have a nice day

**sabrewolf** · October 21, 2003, 10:22

just everyone please bare in mind that having a very early UU usually means a very early GA.

which means
a) despotism: no more than 2 shields per tile
b) likely that the grassland around the cities aren't mined yet (no GA-shield-bonus for 'regular' grassland)
c) not many cities (1-4 maybe) to profit of this

panag: map trading has moved back to the middle/late medieval ages so the incas can't sell their early map anyway... same for the contacts (new: printing press)

and for the portuguese: they do seem extremely powerful under certain circumstances eg. big unsettled oversea territories, earlier contact to another (more advanced) continent. i'm just afraid the AI once again won't be able to handle these advantages (he won't prebuild dozens of settlers, he won't monopolize the contacts, etc)

**Yahweh Sabaoth** · October 21, 2003, 10:36

Originally posted by sabrewolf
and for the portuguese: they do seem extremely powerful under certain circumstances eg. big unsettled oversea territories, earlier contact to another (more advanced) continent. i'm just afraid the AI once again won't be able to handle these advantages (he won't prebuild dozens of settlers, he won't monopolize the contacts, etc)

The real question is, will the game now generate situations where lots of seafaring civilizations start on a small continent, and actually HAVE lots of "empty" continents to settle?

I've never seen a random civ game that even approximates the discovery/settlement/conquest of the New World... I've always missed it, I might add...

**sabrewolf** · October 21, 2003, 10:42

the RMG (random map generator) hasn't ever given me such a situation either. that's why explorers aren't useful for anything except suicide pillaging

maybe if you choose continents, standard size and 2 civs you might get an empty continent

**raen1978** · October 21, 2003, 13:17

Originally posted by Spiffor
(...)

And as per the other Civilization profiles: Am I the only one who thinks the Portuguese and the Inca will rule ?

- Thanks to their UU and their traits, the Portuguese will be the gods of seaborne exploration. Better yet, they'll have the functional equivalent of a frigate tens of turns before magnetism gets invented (and cheaper too!). On Continent maps or Archipelagos, the Portuguese will absolutely rule

For me the Portuguese will rule, but my opinion dont count

They get what they were good at: exploring the seas(still are but no €

), to find resources they didnt had (and still dont have), in the new world.

**GhengisFarb™** · October 21, 2003, 14:44

I'm waiting until I've played a few round of Conquests before to see if these new traits and civ combos are overpowering or not.

**Arrian** · October 21, 2003, 15:08

The real question is, will the game now generate situations where lots of seafaring civilizations start on a small continent, and actually HAVE lots of "empty" continents to settle?

I've never seen a random civ game that even approximates the discovery/settlement/conquest of the New World... I've always missed it, I might add...

Agreed. Allowing the player to give basic instructions to the map generator at startup would be a really nice addition.

-Arrian

**Yahweh Sabaoth** · October 21, 2003, 15:24

It's not even (ncessarily) a matter of "instructions," though that WOULD be nice, wouldn't it...

Civilizations throughout history tend to be either nomadic or centered around river valleys, and other rich agricultural areas. Simply designate the civs in the game as either/or, and have the RNG reflect this. The river-valley civs should start in clusters NEAR each other, with the wide open spaces inbetween occupied by 1 group of nomads. In other words, the French shouldn't start an equal distance from the Mongols, English and Germans: the French, English and Germans should all be nearby in a lush river valley (or several) and the Mongols should be far away, by themselves.

**Yahweh Sabaoth** · October 21, 2003, 15:26

Of course, the problem with the system above is that the civ "in the middle of nowhere" gets ALL that time to expand... but the flip side is, they fall behind in tech. Thus loosely approximating what actually happened (especially if the "nomad" civs were told to build principally offensive land units)

**Panag** · October 21, 2003, 15:33

Originally posted by sabrewolf
just everyone please bare in mind that having a very early UU usually means a very early GA.

which means
a) despotism: no more than 2 shields per tile
b) likely that the grassland around the cities aren't mined yet (no GA-shield-bonus for 'regular' grassland)
c) not many cities (1-4 maybe) to profit of this

panag: map trading has moved back to the middle/late medieval ages so the incas can't sell their early map anyway... same for the contacts (new: printing press)

and for the portuguese: they do seem extremely powerful under certain circumstances eg. big unsettled oversea territories, earlier contact to another (more advanced) continent. i'm just afraid the AI once again won't be able to handle these advantages (he won't prebuild dozens of settlers, he won't monopolize the contacts, etc)

hi ,

thanks , yep , that balances a lot

it would be surprising to see it the other way around , ......

have a nice day

**sabrewolf** · October 21, 2003, 15:41

and speaking of powerful civs. in my recent games i've often seen babylon and korea among the most powerful AI civs. both don't have a 'killer'-UU. and neither of them have real 'killer'-traits (at least not in the human players eyes).

but maybe it's just coincidence.

**Yahweh Sabaoth** · October 21, 2003, 15:49

I have found Korea and Babylon to be among the most consistent well-performing civs. Babylon often gets destroyed, but if it doesn't, it's a powerhouse. Korea's territory is rarely mammoth, but it always is up to date on tech and has plenty of gold to toss around.

**Panag** · October 21, 2003, 15:56

hi ,

it depends , if persia or rome get to iron really fast , .....

but even the lesser civ's in hands of a good human player can bonk some heads , ......

unfortunatly this is not always the case with the same civ's in the hands of the AI , .....

but then again , if one looks at the real world , some civs are doomed to become history , ..... aldo it would be nice if we would be able to code a line extra from time to time , something like " leave at least one city from each civ till the end " , .....

have a nice day

**Yahweh Sabaoth** · October 21, 2003, 15:59

In most random games I play, Rome amounts to very little indeed. I hope they fix this somehow in C3C. Just getting rid of "Industrious" for Carthage would be fine.

I hope they don't screw with M/C for Rome though.

**player1** · October 21, 2003, 16:16

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Just getting rid of "Industrious" for Carthage would be fine.

I doubt it.

First we know that:
-Dutch are Seafaring and Agricultural
-Portugease are Seafaring and Expansionist
-Byzantines are Seafaring and Scientific
-English are Seafaring and Commercial

-There is good chance that Vikings are Seafaring and Militaristic
-There is good chance that Spanish are Seafaring and Religious

-So it's good chance that last Seafaring combo with Industrious will get Carthage

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