Info: Combat (GL)

[SlowThinker]

9. The SDI Defense bonus vs. missiles only applies in cases where a SAM Missile Battery is present and active.

No. I agree with Monk. I am not 100% sure, but I was quite cautious when creating the table in post 24.

12. To activate the fighter vs. helicopter special case, I assume that the attacking unit can be any domain, and only needs to have it's "can attack air units (fighter)" flag active.

It is completely different, see my next post.

11. Ground units fortified outside a city do get a defense bonus vs. naval units.
14. Then does the fortress defense bonus apply even when the attacker is an air unit?

I thought it was clear from the main document.
Fortification protects against any unit (also inside in the city), fortress protects against ground and naval u., city walls protects against ground units only.

13. Naval and air units in cities do not get a terrain bonus.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I don't think there is a terrain bonus for air.

Again I thought it is clear: The terrain bonus for the defender always applies (IMHO).

For an attacking land unit, the following thread (also linked to above) says the terrain bonus is in effect.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=2402

I don't believe it may be true. Attacker gets never a terrain bonus.

[SlowThinker]

Fighters

I retested all the stuff about fighters (and focusing to scenarios). Things are a little bit different than in the original text (!), indeed:

Can attack air units flag ('fighter flag'): Any domain unit with this flag can attack air units with range > 1. This also affects other combat circumstances, as follows:

1. An air unit with a fighter flag stationed in a city scrambles against a non-missile air unit
   • without fighter flag : it gains a x4 defense bonus.
   • with fighter flag : it gains a x2 defense bonus
2. A unit with fighter flag (of any domain) cannot benefit from a SAM (3.5) adjustment unless attacked by a missile.

'Fighter against helicopter':
Any air unit with range=0 attacked by an air unit with AI role 3 (= Air Superiority) suffers a x0.5 defense adjustment and has its firepower reduced to 1.

 

 

[SlowThinker]

I consider the following text as a correct findings and I think it should be added to the document.

3. Howitzers ignore fortresses.

I tested it and I agree.
But fortification (to be fortified) works also against howitzers.

10. A unit from any domain can have the AEGIS Cruiser defense bonus

I tested it and I agree.
Multipliers are OK IMO.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by darndt

For an attacking land unit, the following thread (also linked to above) says the terrain bonus is in effect.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2402

David Arndt

SlowThinker

I believe you have misunderstood David's point. Perhaps the sentence structure does not translate so well. If you examine the thread referred to, it is clear that he is referring to defending, not attacking, units getting the terrain bonus in those situations.

I think he means... "(In the case of) an attacking land unit, the following thread (indicates) the terrain bonus is in effect (for defending units in those situations)."

That said, I agree. Attacking units do not receive the bonus.

Monk

[darndt]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Again I thought it is clear: The terrain bonus for the defender always applies (IMHO).

I suppose it does say that in the guide, although it doesn't emphasize that it applies to naval and air units both inside and outside cities. I did some tests myself, and it does appear that defending units from any domain always get a terrain bonus.

I tested a ground unit attacking a helicopter, a Fighter attacking a helicopter, a Fighter attacking a Bomber, a naval unit with the "can attack air units" flag attacking a bomber and the same naval unit attacking a Fighter stationed in an air base. In all these cases the defender got a terrain bonus. All of these tests were outside of cities. Another test indicates that fighters scrambling to defend a city also get a terrain bonus.

I was pretty surprised once it sunk in. I used to think I could fly my bombers wherever I wanted and it would make no difference, but I guess somehow they manage to get a terrain bonus. Any ideas how they do that? Do forest, jungle, swamp and even hills terrain have more clouds over them, providing extra cover? Can bombers fly low enough to hide behind hills, gaining an even larger defense bonus?

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I believe you have misunderstood David's point. Perhaps the sentence structure does not translate so well. If you examine the thread referred to, it is clear that he is referring to defending, not attacking, units getting the terrain bonus in those situations.

I think he means... "(In the case of) an attacking land unit, the following thread (indicates) the terrain bonus is in effect (for defending units in those situations)."

That said, I agree. Attacking units do not receive the bonus.

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

David Arndt

[Bloody Monk]

David,

Fascinating results!!

I bet these terrain effects apply to air units because the code writers did not want to add extra lines for an air exception. Whatever, it is there, so more care needs to be taken in the choice of tiles from which a bomber attacks...so that it can better survive the counter attack. BTW, is there any terrain effect from a sea tile??

Monk

[SlowThinker]

>BTW, is there any terrain effect from a sea tile??
Do you mean a plane above ocean with increased defense in rules.txt?
I bet there is.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
>BTW, is there any terrain effect from a sea tile??
Do you mean a plane above ocean with increased defense in rules.txt?
I bet there is.

So what is the terrain bonus from a sea tile??

Monk

[darndt]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
So what is the terrain bonus from a sea tile??

The default defense bonus for an ocean tile is 2, or +0% defense.
I just did a couple of tests with an ocean tile with +200% defense. I did tests with naval attacking naval, air attacking naval, and air attacking air. The ocean tile gave a defense bonus in each case.

[darndt]

15. I found some unusual scrambling behavior.

According to the guide:
> Note: Scrambling applies only to air units with the fighter flag.

It appears that if a non-air unit has the "can attack air units" flag and it is the primary defender of a city, the scrambling message will be displayed but the defender will not get the scrambling defense bonus. The defender will lose the SAM Missile Battery defense bonus but will still have the fortified defense bonus (if it is a ground unit) and the terrain bonus.

General: All SAMs stand down! 7th battalion, go up and shoot down those bombers!
Commander of 7th: Uh, sir? We can't fly.
General: Oh, uhh...
Commander of 7th: We're being bombed! [Explosions, line goes dead.]


Yeah, so I guess if you've designed scenario units like mobile SAMs or archers that can attack flying dragons, be aware of this problem.

David Arndt

[darndt]

Re: Fighters

Originally posted by SlowThinker

'Fighter against helicopter':
Any air unit with range=0 attacked by an air unit with AI role 3 (= Air Superiority) suffers a x0.5 defense adjustment and has its firepower reduced to 1.

Hm, interesting. Thanks for that info. That leads me to...

16. Does the AI Role of a unit have any other effects on combat calculation?

[vmxa1]

This was what I like to see in a strat thread. Lots of details and a file with most of the information available.
Excellent work, thanks for the effort.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by darndt
16. Does the AI Role of a unit have any other effects on combat calculation?

Things may be diferent than we thought...
See this thread: Civ2-Creation > About the AIR SUPERIORITY role . . . :

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Only units with the air superiority role can intercept airlifts. They don't have to be air units, even land and sea units can intercept. And true the "can attack aircraft in flight" flag is irrelevant.
Be sure to note though that the pop up text warning of a possible interception will ALWAYS show the unit in the fighter slot.

Anybody for testing and confirmation?

[debeest]

So far as I can see, this combat reference guide indicates that howitzers do not ignore the effect of a fortress. I think that's incorrect. Has the Marquis been heard from any time recently, or is there any way to edit to correct this?

[SlowThinker]

You are right, howitzers ignore fortresses.
The Marquis' work is quite obsolete now, there is more things from this thread that should be incorporated.

If there is any volunteer that would like to rework it and create 'Info: combat II'...