Red Storm - The Cold War Gets Hot (scenario development)

[GhostOfDisco]

With my Sobieski scenario somewhat stalled (OK, I know I few things I could do, but for some reason I never get around to them) I've begun to start on a new scenario idea - a NATO vs. Warsaw Pact clash set in the mid 80s, using Curt's Ostfront map. Somewhat loosely based on Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising (well, I am thinking of some events that might allow the AI to quickly conquer Iceland, and raid the Atlantic therafter) I'm hoping for a large clash of military might across the fields of Europe, but no nukes. (Out-of-game explanation: because nukes take all the fun out of the game, making things quite unfair for all sides. In-game explanation: because nobody wants to wipe out the earth. Yeah, that'll do it. :P )

Anyway, just thought I'd start this thread for commentary and development. For a start, here's some of the units I've got (I don't have all the units set out, stats haven't been written up, and I need to finish city placement (plus maybe remove some placeholders someday, or something) but still...)

(Image uploading seems a bit too sluggish tonight, so...)

[McMonkey]

I love that book!

I understand how you have stalled on Sobieski. Sometimes it gets to the point where you are sick of the sight of a scenario and its best to have a rest from it and return with refreshed enthusiasm and energy!

The initial planning stages of a scenario are often the most enjoyable. I must have planned out (fairly loosely) dozens of scenarios over the years.Just a pity I will never have time to make them all. It will be good to try WWIII without the nukes. Good luck with this new project!

[bc1871]

This definitely looks like a fun scenario with a ton of potential. My only comment would be that it would be even more exciting to attempt to include multiple national NATO and Warsaw Pact Infantry Units(rather than relying on the generic grunt for NATO and the Soviet Bloc).

[AGRICOLA]

@Ghost

With my Sobieski scenario somewhat stalled (OK, I know I few things I could do, but for some reason I never get around to them)

IMHO, but for a few minor tweaks, Sobieski is ready to be released. Right now, it is a good scen and fun to play. I see no reason for you to go back and make significant changes.

Please don't fall into the same trap as others have fallen into: get bored/frustrated with making the final touchups and put the scen on the back burner. I've playtested too many excellent scens that were 90+% completed and then were never heard of again.

Make Sobieski your Christmas present to the Civ2 public.

Please! :desire:

[GhostOfDisco]

This definitely looks like a fun scenario with a ton of potential. My only comment would be that it would be even more exciting to attempt to include multiple national NATO and Warsaw Pact Infantry Units(rather than relying on the generic grunt for NATO and the Soviet Bloc).

That was my original plan, but given the number of nations involved (21 for just the WARPAC and NATO alliances) meant it took up a lot of unit slots. I thought that those unit slot could be better used for something other than "X country's infantry", so I modified it. Maybe I'll go back to it, or probably try to find some kind of compromise or something. I dunno.

Sobieski as a Christmas present? I like that idea. No promises or anything, but Christmas is about a month away...

[Hans99]

Looks very promising, i see we are advancing in time

Ah and i like the F-14...

[McMonkey]

Creating nation specific Infantry (or any other type of unit) is certainly very aesthetically pleasing but it will limit the amount of space for unit development (technologically) through the scenario. At the end of the day a Bulgarian Motor Rifle Regiment and a Polish one will be trained and equipped in a very similar way, whereas a Regiment of T-55's will be inferior to a Regiment of T-72's. Although the NATO forces have more diverse equipment I would expect that most Infantry units would have similar capabilities (obviously Mechanized units vary more). I kind of wished I had made generic infantry units in 'Rise of the Dictators' to free up space for more space for units to develop along the tech tree. Just a thought.

[Elensar]

Maybe have a few nation specific units if they are distinctive and interesting visually.

For instance, and I'm just using this as an example of the sort of thing - there would be a generic "Royal Guard" unit in a medieval scenario, but the Byzantines would get cataphracts (or Varangians) instead.

That sort of thing with a few unit types would allow for something more interesting than generic NATO Infantry III (as well as the picked example), but without using up dozens of unit slots.

[bc1871]

It's too bad that no one ever got their hands on the source code...then we could have a grand Cold War scenario! Also, "Red Storm Rising" took place in '85 or was it '82?

[GhostOfDisco]

Maybe have a few nation specific units if they are distinctive and interesting visually.

For instance, and I'm just using this as an example of the sort of thing - there would be a generic "Royal Guard" unit in a medieval scenario, but the Byzantines would get cataphracts (or Varangians) instead.

That sort of thing with a few unit types would allow for something more interesting than generic NATO Infantry III (as well as the picked example), but without using up dozens of unit slots.

That sounds like a good idea. I'm wondering what unique units could I have - the French Foreign Legion and the USMC come to mind, as well as the 82nd Airborne, perhaps (though I might have to resort to a generic "Airborne" unit, or two units (one for the West, the other for the East)... I dunno. I'm wondering about the Belasgiari(sp) (you know - the Italians with the funny hats) - I'd like to put them in, but I'm not sure... The SAS also comes to mind, but I'm not sure how much of a role commandos can play in a continent-wide war scenario. But it does give me ideas?

Does anyone know what kind of colorful/unique Cold-War era units I could include here?

[Elensar]

Pity there's only one spy slot. Having commandos as cleverly tweaked spies would be very appropriate. Similarly tweaked diplomats would do in a pinch for the same purpose.

Afraid I can't think of any special/colorful units of the era.

How much are units going to advance? If you have only a couple levels of advancement, there ought to be room for at least a few "special" units.

[McMonkey]

Soviet Naval Infantry springs to mind

If I were making this scenario I would use the documented Tables of Organization as a basis for the units and work from there. If you need any figures I have loads of old books from the 1980's with NATO and WARPAC strengths etc...

Depending on the number of units you want in the scenario you could either go with Division strength units (which would include organic supporting arms) or Brigade and Regiment size units with separate supporting units (AA, Artillery, Engineer etc...). Brigade/Regiment scale would allow more varied unit types but you will probably need to do some creative juggling of the figures to avoid having too many units in the scenario.

In Rise of the Dictators I started with the real numbers of Army, Air and Naval units and then made them fit Civ2. This allowed me to keep all of the nations strengths realistically balance. For example an Infantry Division may have had 3 Infantry regiments in most armies but I reduced it to 2 for all nations to keep the numbers under control. Using this system you can accurately calculate the number of ships, aircraft and missiles too.

Leave enough space for some upgrading of weapons (Ie M60 to M1 Abrams).
I would also make some distinction between the main NATO armies Armoured forces (US, France, Germany, Britain). At the end of the day not all NATO countries can be represented individually and I'm not sure what it would add to the scenario by having multiple units with the same role and stats. Any space left at the end could then be used for special units like Foreign Legion, SPETSNAZ, SAS etc...

[Cyrion]

I'm wondering about the Belasgiari(sp) (you know - the Italians with the funny hats) - I'd like to put them in, but I'm not sure...

It's "Bersaglieri", and I think their role would be too minor to include them

[EZRhino]

I enjoyed reading Red Storm Rising, though I'm not usually a big Tom Clancy fan. 1984 era Fulda gap high cold-war oobs are fascinating and scary things. Sounds like a fun scenario:b

Out of curiosity how much time will a single turn represent? A Day? A Week? If so will the scenario feature build-able units or will the forces be fixed at the start like Tecumseh's Operation Market Garden, or Nemo's Second Front?

[curtsibling]

This looks like a riot! Was wanting to do a Modern scenario for ages...
But decided to do a Napoleonic one instead...(that's my current project)

I have some pretty modern cities you might want to use, Ghost...If you
need such things let me know...Modern stuff is easier to do that Turkish,
so I won't keep you waiting around, old chap!