Red October v.2.0 playtest

[techumseh]

I think Exile is right. A bit of strategic advice may help people have a more enjoyable game.

In my experience, the best way to have a chance of winning is to get big, quickly. You have 3 turns to capture most of Russia, except the Nationalist areas, before the Central Powers attack.

This will give you very good revenue. Plow it into research and get armoured train ASAP. Sell your Waterworks and Electrical Systems for operating cash.

In the meantime build lots of artillery. Early in the game, it's your best defensive weapon. Place it in key cities and blast the Germans and Austro-Hungarians before they attack. Then do the same to the Czech Legion along the Trans-Siberian railway.

If you're successful to this point, you have a fighting chance in the rest of the game.

[civ2units]

I would go with Agricolas idea of getting special units when liberating a important or big city.
Or I would give the Red Guards one defense point more, in the second turn I´ve lost nearly every city which was attacked by the Nacionalists.

During the game I didn´t look at the improvements, I build Red Guards for defending my cities. I used the Artillery for conquering the enemies cities.

The Germans attacked me and conquered three cities, after all I could made a truce agreement. Otherwise the Germans had captured Moscow.

I captured most of the white cities, with the beginning of the Czech POW revolution in Siberia, the whites liberated nearly every city. My Red Guards didn´t have a chance against the armoured trains. Only with the help of the Artillery and one Austin-Putilov I destroyed two white trains.

I would push up the research a little bit for getting the more stronger and powerfull units. In October 1919 I only could build Red Guards, Artillery, Red Cav. and the Austin-Putilov.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Exile
I'm more interested in hearing about those atrocious lines of play.

Here is an example from the README of a scen that I recently played. I added the comments at the time I was playing. It was necessary to sanitize them somewhat in order to pass the Poly censors.

From the README of a scen

The Axis powers are the protagonists of the scenario. They comprise initially of just Italy, but as time goes on, and Italy flounders ( it does not ) , Adolf Hitler sends more and more German equipment and armies ( not enough to matter ) to save the faltering Italians ( they don't falter ) on many fronts. You absolutely need the German equipment to win in this scenario ( no way ) . British infantry can destroy your tanks with ease ( uhuh ) . They can not however, destroy the massive Tiger tanks that Germany will eventually send you ( probably, but scen was finished before I saw any ) .

Be prepared to wait the first few turns ( why? ) , possibly while losing many of your troops ( why would one lose them? ) , for the Afrika Korps to show up ( only if one has a room temperature IQ ) . Once they are in position, you can successfully launch an offensive, but will the first offensive succeed ( sure did, like taking candy from children )? It does not seem certain…

For those who are not American: Normal room temperature is 68-70 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Cyrion]

excellent one, Agri!

Please, when you playtest Pomarj, send me the uncensored comments!

Even though I'm clearly not playing in the same league with our naughty canadian friend, I'm doing slightly better than civ2units (I'm not on my first try, mind you! ): I'm right now finishing crushing the czechs and I'll prepare for the Japanese and Entente landings!

I'll try to post an intermediate report tonight!

[civ2units]

I finished my last game now. In August 1920, the last Bolshevik city was fallen. Nationalists and Czech troops marched into the streets of Akmolinsk, southern Siberia.

Lenin and his Comrades fled.
The Communists revolution failed...

Tomorrow I will start a second game, than hopefully more successfull.

[civ2units]

Centuries later they will say "Lenin the worthless"...

[Cyrion]

General playtest comments

I have been playing 2 games now (not to the end), using the experience I acquired in the 1st one to get a much better result. The game might be a bit too difficult (I played at the Politburo level), especially if you make some modifications regarding the Commissars.

First of all, I have to admit I did use a few dirty tricks myself…

As Agricola did, I sold many “useless” improvements: Courthouses, Granary, Waterworks, Electrical Systems (yes, I chose a no growth game too ).

But where I have really been a bad boy is in my use of the Commissars. I have realized a long time ago that bribing non barbarian units is usually not worth it (and of course ToT can make this impossible with the “unbribable” units), while bribing cities (with their resident units) is much more interesting
Basically, I have been allowing Entente and Czech Legions to take some cities, just to bribe them back at a low cost with a lot of interesting units!
I didn’t push it TOO far (not basing my strategy on that), but still it did unbalance the game somewhat: in short, and for the costs of 5 Commissars (50 shields each) and about 900 Gold (bribes), I got back >1’300 Gold, 7 artillery, 3 czech infantry, 2 white infantry, 2 cruiser, 4 british infantry!!! Not too bad, even if I wouldn’t have minded a few armoured trains too…

So I think something needs to be done about the Commissars, because they could be used even more extensively than I did. And if I don’t mind seeing white or Czech units being bribed (the Czech were mercenaries anyway), having bolchevik british units seems a bit weird…

I don’t know what you intended with the Commissars, but here are a few suggestions:
- if bribing isn’t what you had in mind for them (most units are unbribable anyway), the easiest solution is to remove the “incite a revolt” in the game.txt (??) file
- if you still want some city bribing to occur, I would suggest to limit it, maybe by making the Commissars unbuildable (and giving a few of them on random turns once the tech has been discovered, for instance), so that no strategy can be based mainly on them
- and if you keep the “incite a revolt” option, maybe making the entente Democracy would make the indirect bribing of british or American units impossible! Of course, the behaviour of a democratic Entente might well create some problem with the AI, so it’s probably not a good solution…

Detailed report follow in the next post!

[AGRICOLA]

Basically, I have been allowing Entente and Czech Legions to take some cities, just to bribe them back at a low cost with a lot of interesting units!
I didn’t push it TOO far (not basing my strategy on that), but still it did unbalance the game somewhat: in short, and for the costs of 5 Commissars (50 shields each) and about 900 Gold (bribes), I got back >1’300 Gold, 7 artillery, 3 czech infantry, 2 white infantry, 2 cruiser, 4 british infantry!!! Not too bad, even if I wouldn’t have minded a few armoured trains too…

Jeez, that is diabolically brilliant. Both horns and the tail for that one!

[civ2units]

Bribing cities and especially units are an interesting strategy.

I would allow this option only on the Czech Legion. I don´t think that it is unrealistic to have some Bolshevik Czech units.
As Cyrion said they are mercenaries and fight for those who pays the most money.

Maybe now I should have more luck for a successfull red revolution.

[techumseh]

Interesting. I would like to allow subversion (they are communists after all), but how to limit it is a good question.

If I made the Entente, Nationalists, Poles and Japanese all democracies, how would it affect their AIs?

One simple thing to do is increase the cost of a commissar so they become very expensive.

BTW, bribing Entente units is not so far fetched. One of the reasons the western powers withdrew from Russia is that their troops had become infected with the "incubus of Bolshevism." Desertion rates were high and there were strikes and demonstrations in the home countries. The French fleet sent to the Black Sea actually mutinied.

[Cyrion]

Detailed timeline

Here we go with the detailed timeline of my second game, from November 1917 to January 1919!

From what I have seen, all the events work really well and when they are supposed to! The only exception being the reluctance of the Brits to attack Murmansk: 7 turns after their landings, they are still to launch a first attack on the city (which they did at once on their other landings!).

The list below doesn't include all the improvements I sold, or cities I took/lost, just a few things I thought were interesting!


Nov.17: Many cities seized; science put to 80%, some markets sold

Dec.17 Council of Commissars discovered, researching Workers Control; many cities seized (including Omsk)

Jan. 18: Workers Control discovered, researching Armoured train

Feb. 18: Armoured Train discovered, researching Internationalism; sold all courthouses to rushbuild a few trains. Some Cossack attack!

March 18: 5 trains ready. Internationalism discovered, researching War Communism; science rate lowered

April 18: Center attacks, as well as Cossacks

May 18: Lost Vinnitsa to Center who progress; construction of Komintern started in Moscow (to be ready for the Spartakists)

June 18: War Communism discovered, researching Cheka. Many Czech units appear, and many are killed (including 4-5 armoured trains! ); cease-fire with Center

July 18: Sneak attack by Center; the brits stay around Murmansk without attacking! Trotsky's Armoured Train at Moscow. Krasnoiarsk bribed from the White for 170 Gold, with 4 artillery, 1 czech infantry and 1 white infantry; Tyumen bribed from the White for 140 Gold, with 2 czech infantry and 1 white infantry; both bring back about as much gold as they costed!

Aug. 18: Cossacks attack in Siberia; the last few Czechs are slaughtered!

Sept. 18: Entente Landings at Archangel, Vladivostok and Baku: Commissars are getting ready!

Oct. 18: Japanese intervention: 15 units (!) in a stack near Khaborovsk are slaughtered; no other Japanese can be seen outside their territory! Entente attack Baku and Archangelsk, and take Vladisvostock, which is bribed back for 345 Gold, bringing 2 artillery, 1 cruiser and 714 Gold!

Nov. 18: Most German units change to Deserters; Brits take Baku and Archangelsk; Archangelsk is bribed back for 158 Gold, bringing back 1 brit infantry, 1 cruiser and 185 gold!

Dec. 18: Komintern is finished in Moscow. No guerilla unit appears. Baku is bribed back (105 Gold for 3 brit Infantry, 1 artillery and 117 Gold) while Entente counter-attack on Archangelsk and Vladivostock


Now, at the beginning of 1919, I am getting ready to attack the Center and the last White cities, preparing some trains and Austin-Poulikov for that! As soon as the Spartakist appear, I’ll start slaughtering Deserters!

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by techumseh
Interesting. I would like to allow subversion (they are communists after all), but how to limit it is a good question.

I like this option too!

If I made the Entente, Nationalists, Poles and Japanese all democracies, how would it affect their AIs?

Good question! No answer until you try...

One simple thing to do is increase the cost of a commissar so they become very expensive.

Or what do you think of my proposal to give a Commissar on random turns once the related tech is discovered?

BTW, bribing Entente units is not so far fetched. One of the reasons the western powers withdrew from Russia is that their troops had become infected with the "incubus of Bolshevism." Desertion rates were high and there were strikes and demonstrations in the home countries. The French fleet sent to the Black Sea actually mutinied.

Many thanks: you just gave historical justification to my behaviour!

[AGRICOLA]

Nicely played, my nasty friend.

[EZRhino]

I've noticed that in general giving the AI democracy makes them into peaceniks

Similar to Aggie's idea, you could try setting a minimum bribe cost to White, Nationalist and Entente units (in field 'c'). This could make subversion an expensive, but possible strategy for the Bolsheviks.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by EZRhino
Similar to Aggie's idea, you could try setting a minimum bribe cost to White, Nationalist and Entente units (in field 'c'). This could make subversion an expensive, but possible strategy for the Bolsheviks.

Yes, but bribing units is not a problem, as it always has a fair cost, which is not the case when bribing cities!

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Nicely played, my nasty friend.

Thank you, Master!