The Bloody Monk HOF Celebration Succession Game!!!

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Happy New Year to all!!

6) Again, for future reference purposes. The reason one waits to found the SSC is so the other cities founded before it will have their beaker contribution counted (rather than be lost) toward the next advance. You then start with a pretty full (rather than empty) box. That means that stopping deliveries when you have "just enough" is unnecessary. It also makes sense to build some WOW in one of the newest cities. For example, Darwin's, SETI, and Cure. That way, every subsequent city takes advantage of the new Wonder. Again, something to think about....
Monk

I'm clearly in need of a tutorial here. I assumed that once there were enough beakers from van deliveries that there would be an advance from the first city, all further beakers from vans would be lost. From your comments, I guess I have got this wrong.

RJM

[Verrucosus]

Happy New Year, Bloody Monk! It's good to have you back for the big finale.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Are you guys nuts!! Just kidding but really, all that farmland around the SSC is cute and all, but shouldn't someone have rushed a supermarket?? , oh well Can anyone say, 'titsonbull'?? [ I hope everyone, not just the players, gets a good laugh from this; not at anyone's expense, but, just because it is a very funny situation.]

It is. I actually noticed the lack of a supermarket, but given the amount of grain in storage and the realisation that the game will not last that much longer, I did not consider it worthwhile to spend a turn on the supermarket. Of course, I'm still nuts, because I kept those engineers happily farming the countryside of Valencia for no good reason and in spite of lots of other work to do elsewhere.

Was Adam Smith worth the vans??

Probably not, but when it was built we had not yet committed ourselves to the minimal infrastructure approach that was eventually taken.

... You then start with a pretty full (rather than empty) box. ...

Do you mean the start the city processing at the beginning of the turn? I shared rjm's ideas about the effect of caravan deliveries when the beaker box is almost full. I need to read this up again in solo's guide.

Good luck to the next player. I think either he or his successor will be able to report a launch.

Verrucosus

[Bloody Monk]

@ rjm & V

How do you suppose one achieves multiple advances per turn??

Probably slapped yourself on the forehead...now, go read solo.



What you are used to comes from having the SSC in the first city. Your experience led to a false conclusion. It is only due to postion and the fact that usually it takes the beakers from the SSC to finish the advance. Even if the need is for one additional beaker to finish, all the SSC beakers are wiped off for that advance (Which means the next turn starts with an empty box.). However, if the SSC is as in this game and the advance is finished by its beakers, the game gives you choice for the next advance and then processes the remaining cities above the SSC on the list. All of their beakers are counted toward the next advance.

Enjoy,
Monk

[Andemagne]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk forehead...now, go read solo.

I think that I will.

[solo]

Since the my guide is lengthy, I will excerpt the relevant sections here:

There are two reasons you may not want to use your capital as the SSC. Later on during Democracy, the SSC can build a cheap courthouse to celebrate beyond size 21 and since a helper is now the capital, it can add an extra citizen for free because of the palace. It can also be useful to have a few helpers contribute their beakers towards the next advance being learned after the SSC has added its own to the one currently being researched. These helper beakers often allow one to get a good jump on learning the next advance, when SSC beakers have provided enough to trigger the first one. (The order of processing cities and their beakers at the beginning of each turn is the reverse of the order in which the cities were founded, so the capital is always processed last).

2.1.5 Tech Trigger City

When enough freights have been delivered to fulfill the beaker requirements of a tech being learned, the tech will still require 1 beaker from a city in order to trigger the advance. This beaker will come from the last city which was founded, since at the beginning of each turn when the game processes cities, it does so in order from last to first. If the last city founded is producing many beakers, all of these except one will be wasted whenever this triggering function is performed. Since a second advance may be possible from city science on turns where the first is provided by freights, available beakers can be used more efficiently by adding one more city to perform this tech triggering function.

Having a tech trigger city may become a necessity late in the game, when total city science barely exceeds mounting tech costs. It may be more efficient to quickly add a small trigger city than to continue adding scientific improvements to other cities. However, its addition to the game may bring the total number of cities over 10, causing some unhappiness in others, so doing this should be delayed until all other cities have finished celebrating to full size. A tech trigger city can also be used as a space ship contractor.

RJM,

Your assumption about van deliveries is correct. They only count towards the first advance on turns when more than one are being learned, so any additional deliveries after enough are made to count towards the first advance are wasted.

I believe Monk's comments about "waste" were in reference to beakers wasted by helper cities when they are contributed before the SSC's.

[Bloody Monk]

When Enough is not Enough

Thanks, solo. Also from the Guide, see 2.5.8 &.9...

2.5.8 One Turn Advances

Once the SSC is full sized and has all of the scientific improvements and wonders, it will be producing enough beakers to learn each tech every two turns, but in successful early landing games, an advance per turn is more desirable, since this is twice as good. Some extra beakers will be provided by helpers and colonies. Another good boost to SSC beakers may come from trade routes established to a nearby AI city that have connecting roads and rails. Most often though, caravan and freight deliveries can be timed to add just enough extra beakers to make the difference. The goal of maintaining one turn advances will probably be a struggle until the discovery of Automobile.


2.5.9 Turns with Two Advances

Once Automobile has been discovered, and superhighways have been added to the SSC, city science may start producing enough beakers to earn an advance per turn. As helpers and colonies reach full size and begin adding superhighways and scientific improvements, this capacity can be sustained and usually maintained until the discovery of Space Flight. During this period, there will be several turns where enough freights can be delivered to secure the first advance, allowing city science to earn the second of a pair. If a good system of alternating trade has been established in time, it’s even possible to sustain 2 advances per turn for most of the turns following the discovery of Automobile.

However, in most games the opportunities for two advances per turn are usually limited, so it’s best to plan for them in advance. This involves choosing turns where you will not be faced with a bad list of techs to choose from when selecting the second advance of a pair. The two techs should both be along the paths towards Space Flight. If not, the effort put into getting two advances per turn instead of one may be wasted. This is another good reason to learn and understand the system of rotating tech lists described in detail earlier.

---

Actually, I think the problem is my poor explanation. (I claim diminished capacity. )

Strictly speaking, one gains only one advance from deliveries per turn, so over-delivering vans would waste those excess beakers. If, because of tech costs, tech count, and lack of relevant white goods in helper cities (like in this game) the best you can do at 100% Science is 2-turns per tech, then, there is no chance for multiple advances that turn.

But you can make sure that all of your city-beakers count toward the next tech. You do this by delivering enough vans to equal, or just exceed, the needed beakers for that tech. (Put Science at zero and change out all Geniuses to Entertainers...the number of turns shown will equal the number of beakers needed for that tech.) The last city built will contribute the 1 beaker needed to trigger the advance. All the rest of the city science beakers will be counted toward the next advance.

Example (using the 1440 save)
--2250 beakers needed for advance
--1916 beakers from cities @ turn (look under Trade)
--last city, Santander, contributes 25 beakers

If you deliver vans to equal the full 2250 beakers, then you will start the next turn w/ 1916-25 beakers in the box.

Maybe that is what others meant by stopping deliveries. If so, we all meant the same thing.

But I took it to mean, deliver no more than 2250 - 1916 = 334 worth of vans. I hold that it is unnecessary to stop at 334, that it is advantageous to get a big leg up on the next advance. If one has the ship chain and the vans, why not deliver them??

I really hope this attempt is more understandable.

Someone want to play next??

Monk

[Verrucosus]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I took it to mean, deliver no more than 2250 - 1916 = 334 worth of vans. I hold that it is unnecessary to stop at 334, that it is advantageous to get a big leg up on the next advance. If one has the ship chain and the vans, why not deliver them??

Using your example, I meant that I would deliver no more than 2250 - 1916 = 334 worth of vans, if and only if 1916 beakers were actually in the box when I started playing the turn (which - minus the 25 beakers from Santander spent on the last advance - would be the case if I had followed your advice the previous turn).

If you are saying that I should deliver vans until the box is full, we are in agreement. If you are saying that the beakers from vans delivered beyond that point are not lost, but applied to the next advance, I am still confused because this appears to contradict solo's statement under 2.1.5 (quoted in his post) that 1 beaker is required from a city to trigger an advance. I am assuming - and maybe this is the part that I am getting wrong - that before an advance has been triggered no beakers can be accumulated towards the following advance.

I have tried to be as precise as possible, but this is such a tricky area that even simple terms like "beginning of the turn" (beginning of the city processing phase or of the movement phase?) and "next advance" (the one about to be completed or the one after that?) can become ambiguous.

In any case, it is nice to see that we can finish this game with as much detailed analysis as we began.

Verrucosus

[solo]

Yes, beakers from vans only help towards learning the current (or first) tech because their beakers are added to the box at the time deliveries are made.

Since a tech cannot be learned until after a turn has ended and vans cannot be delivered in between turns, vans cannot contribute beakers towards any extra advances on turns producing more than one.

City science adds beakers one city at a time after a turn has ended. If a city adds enough beakers to fill the box, an advance is earned and research continues with another tech. Suppose this 'trigger" city had 25 beakers as in the the example above, but only 1 more beaker was needed to fill the box and trigger the advance, then 24 of this city's 25 beakers would be wasted when a new tech is chosen and processing of beakers continues with the next city.

While vans can only earn 1 tech per turn, the number of techs earned by city science is only limited by the total number of beakers they are producing.

[Verrucosus]

Aha! I believe I now understand how the mechanism works. I did read about it in the Early Landing Guide some time ago and thought I had understood, but discussing it in the context of a succession game like this one really helps to let it sink in.

Just one more follow-up question, please: In the guide it says under 2.1.5 that one more beaker from a city will be required to complete a tech. Does this mean that, regardless of beakers accumulated by freights, there cannot be tech advance in a civilization with 0 % science and no scientists? Or will the programme check whether a tech has been "paid for" when it processes the trigger city irrespective of whether that city itself actually contributes anything? (I have a very vague memory - in fact so vague that it might be from Civ1 - of getting science advances without any science output from cities.)

Verrucosus

[solo]

At least 1 beaker from city science or from an Einstein is needed. It's easy to overlook a lone scientist somewhere when the slider is set to zero, which might explain why you thought you got an advance just from vans.

[Verrucosus]

I am sure you are right, solo. Thank you for clearing things up and - although I'm sure it has been said many times - for all the work you put into that guide.

Now, without in any way wanting to trespass on Bloody Monk's prerogative to draft people into service, how about another turnset?

[yaroslav]

Sorry for being a lurker jumping into this thread from time to time, but I am learning a lot reading this thread and I want to humbly thanks to all players in this game

[Grigor]

I second that, yaroslav. BM's last RCC post was a classic!

[-Jrabbit]

Great to see you "stable" again, Monk! Things are progressing nicely for a "fairly early leanding."

I'm very excited to see that you're willing to loose the dogs of war after launch! This has long been my favorite stage of Alpha Centauri games: to maintain peace untile The Launch, then destroy all opposition, steal all WoWs, and leave one lone enemy city at the endgame -- preferably with a lovely max happiness boost to maximize the score.

Now, who wants the ball?

[atomant]

I personally think the rabiit should 'hop' to it... provided he has fixed his zipper problems....