Jan III Sobieski scenario

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
A bit of an update-

Progress has stalled, though I've done a few things. For one, I've tried setting the populations, using Henrik Lohmander's "Carolus Gustavus Regis" scenario. Sometimes I wonder if his figures were exaggerated (I think Gdansk/Danzig was 12-15 pop), though, given that Civ city populations are not only of the city, but the countryside as well...

Also problematic is the fact that his scenario doesn't certain cities that are on mine (Kharkov, for instance- is that historically accurate?) I've got no real data on the thing - can somebody help me out here? Then there's farmland, irrigation etc. - how much should I place? I don't know how it was back in those days, and in my Civ 2 playing experience I tend not to irrigate/farm unless I have to, and I know the Poles were mostly a rural people, so - any help?

Henrik is still floating around, I traded PM's with him about 6 months ago. Henrik is a History fanatic so my guess is what you are seeing is fairly accurate historically.

But don't forget to make a "playable", as well as a "historical" scenario you have to balance game play with historical accuracy.

Send Henrik a PM and ask him, he might be happy to help out

[McMonkey]

@Patine
I did mention the book and authors in post #50.

Just to clarify, all of the above text was from Cavalry The History of a Fighting Elite by Zvonimir Grbasic and Velimir Vuksic (ISBN 1-85409-500-5).

Don't want to get sued!

[McMonkey]

Just got an e-mail with the latest Osprey releases and thought this link may be useful:

Vienna

Are you still working on this project?

[GhostOfDisco]

It's on hiatus for now, though not abandoned.

It does seem a bit more "open-ended" than, say, a normal war scenario... I dunno. It's not abandoned, I've just got other stuff to do right now.

[GhostOfDisco]

Just so you know, the Sobieski scenario has not been abandoned. I had a big setback when the whole scenario file stuff crashed. However, I wasn't that far along in the actual game data anyway, so it wasn't that big a loss. I've restarted the actual scenario stuff, and have begun to do some city placement. So, things look up ... somewhat.

For one thing, I really don't have that much information on Sobieski's career as Hetman and reign as King. Sure, there's tons of stuff on the battle of Vienna, but that was just one part of Sobieski's life. Heck, I'm not sure which month of 1665 (I think) he was named Hetman, ergo I'm not sure exactly when I'm supposed to begin the scenario (since I'm thinking of going the 1 turn= 1 month route). I'm also not sure what the general disposition of forces was at the beginning - not that I need to know the exact battle order or anything, but just a general idea of the forces' composition, where they were generally located (reading The Deluge, for example, I was under the impression that most of the Polish army was in the Ukraine at the time the Swedes invaded), so I'd know where to put all the initial forces.

Another, larger question I'm thinking about is exactly how much "leeway" I should have vis a vis historical events - player freedom. Especially on the diplomatic front. One one extreme would be to constrain the player to the alliances, treaties et cetera as were historically made. On the other would be to just let it be a free for all (which, while allowing maximum freedom, has its downsides, as can be seen in some of Eivind's scenarios, where all the AI nations throw off their efficient governments for their scenario's equivalent of despotism and start hacking at each other. ) I'm hoping for something between these extremes, but not sure what.
That surely the Turks will be at war at Poland when then march on Lwow, Vienna [or Krakow] is certain; beyond that I'm not sure.

(I'm wondering if the Carolus scenario might be a good example of how to balance historical events with player/AI freedom, but I'd have to play it to be sure. )

As for goals, I've got at least some of them set out. While Sobieski did have his successes (mainly keeping the Turks out of Poland and Austria), historians also note some failures on his part, most notably his inability to keep the eastern Ukranian lands and his failure to stabilize the political situation of the somewhat anarchic Rzeczpospolita. So, I've decided to incorporate that into the scenario, meaning that in order to win the scenario, you've got to do succeed where the "Lion of the North" failed. I know Sobieski tried, in hopes of stablizing the country, to establish his family as a Polish dynasty; in fact, he had conspired with Sweden, Turkey and some other countries in a plan that would involve him invading Ducal Prussia and establishing his son as Duke of Prussia in hopes of establishing a royal line (unfortunately for Sobieski, Turkey broke its promise and invaded Poland, preventing the Pole from marching on Konigsburg.)

On the siege of Vienna, I've been wondering about something - historically the Imperial forces were outnumbered, and would have been quickly overpowered had the Turks made a big push for the city, but Kara Mustapha opted for a siege so that he, rather than his soldiers, could claim Vienna's wealth when the city fell (right of plunder and all that.) My question is - how to make the AI do a siege rather than a rush on the city, but still make Polish intervention necessary for the survival of the city? (True, the player will be responsible for the city's defense in any case, but you know what I mean.)

So, the scenario isn't dead, but still needs much, much, much work on it. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[GhostOfDisco]

And here's a peek at the condition of the map:

[McMonkey]

Glad to hear this scenario is still kicking. I will start reading up on the subject again and see if I can be of assistance.

I think some historical guidance can help in a scenario but there must be enough room for the player to do it their way. Setting historical goals for the player will help keep things on track without the need to dictate things. If you use ToT the powerful events can also force the player to have to react to historical events. Frederick the Great is a very good example of a historically detailed scenario that gives the player some flexibility to change history.

I would not worry about trying to make the game 100% accurate (IE It does not really matter if you are a month or two out regarding when Jan was made Hetman). If people play and enjoy the game they will probably read about the history and appreciate it that way. The scenarios we make are fun and give us an insight into historical events but they are not a history lesson in themselves so some artistic license is allowed!

Too tired to put my thoughts across effectively but I hope you catch my drift!

[Gagliaudo]

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
And here's a peek at the condition of the map:

really nice
keep on, man!

[curtsibling]

Looking very nice!

I have a feeling this will be a great adventure -

[GhostOfDisco]

Monster post!

Just doing some thinking/working on this scenario…

One concept I’ve got floating around in my mind is the possibility of using the goody hut’s mercenary/barbarian horde feature to allow/simulate the players ability to fight/recruit Cossacks and perhaps maybe Crimean Tartars/Mongols. During this period of history, the Cossack’s weren’t purely on the side of Russia yet – while they did cause the Poles a lot of havoc, sometimes there were Cossacks on the Polish side (they weren’t called “free-booters” for nothing! ) So I’d like to simulate this by assigning Cossacks to the mercenary/barbarian slots, which means if you enter a goody hut, you might get some friendly Cossack mercenaries, or a horde of Cossacks just waiting to slaughter you.

(Speaking of the whole barbarian horde/good hut thing, what techs determine the number of units in a horde? I know playing vanilla Civ 2 the “discovering” unit can be surrounded by hut-spawned barbarians (at least early in the game), but when playing my US 2013 scenario I only get 1 Partisan guy spawned for each “terrorist cell” (barbarian horde). I’d prefer the former to the latter, but I’m not sure what to do.

Related to that is the Mobile Warfare tech. I’m thinking of placing the Hussar unit in the Paratrooper text, so that when/if Sobieski decides to reinvigorate the hussars, you’ll get a pop-up message saying you can recruit them again. However, in vanilla Civ 2 you have to research Mobile Warfare in order to get the Para unit, and that messes things up in the barbarian unit type equation/ So, how to you trigger the Paradrop text – get the Mobile Warfare tech, get the tech that gets you the unit in the Para’s slot, or both? )

And then there’s the Crimean Tartars. What should I do with them? Should they have/be barbarian cities (so they can raid Poland a lot), part of the Ottoman civ (as the Crimean Khanate was something of a vassal of the Sultan), or should they be their own independent civ, as I know the Sobieski himself negotiated at times with the Crimean Khan (I’ve currently got a “Netural Civ,” but given how I can put all the countries under Ottoman influence/control under the Turks, all the German states under the Holy Roman Empire under the Imperials/Hapsburgs (with the exception of the Elector of Brandenburg/Prussia), and with Muscovites (Russians) and Swedes basically filling in the map, I might be able to get rid of the virtually useless (or is it?) “Neutral Civ” and replace it with the Tartars?) Or should I divide the Tartars between good hut mercenaries (that can serve the Poles, of course), barbarians (for goody hut hordes and event-generated raids) and Turkish-controlled units (for those event-generated Ottoman campaigns in which the Tartars played part.)

Also, I’ve been doing some thinking about when the scenario should begin, and I’m thinking of shifting the start date from whenever in 1666 Sobieski was made a Hetman to the time in 1667 when the Treaty of Andrusovo was signed. Why? Because that treaty is the one that gave Smolensk and Kiev, along with a large part of the Ukriane, to Russia. The recovery of said cities (and their respective lands, implicitly, will be one of the objectives of the scenario, and by starting the scenario at said handover, I’ll be able to avoid that pesky problem that Civ 2 can’t really generate a peaceful handover of territory from one civ to another. (On another interesting trivial note, said 1667 stated that Russia was to own Kiev for only two years, but Moscow decided to hold onto that city after said time was up. The civ designer in me thinks, “well, whattya know? A chance for Poland to strike at Muscovy without ruining its diplomatic reputation. ☺ )

Attached below is the latest “city placement” file, along with the current (placeholders) for graphics and whatnot. I’ll probably be able to use the Europe 1700s city gfx (they don’t look out of place for 17th century Europe, do they?) and maybe the Arab/Ottoman one (it definitely has that “Muslim” look, but I’m not sure it matches Turkish Europe…) The “French” city is a placeholder for the Polish city style, which will be in Polish Baroque.

[McMonkey]

Looking good! I like the idea for making use of the goody huts. Seems like another good way of saving on events space. I'm not the right person to answer technical questions though.

For city placement I would find a decent map of the period and then use Wikipedia to check the history of each city. This will give you an idea of the importance of the city and what size it should be in game. Its a fascinating read too!

[Jerec]

Re: Monster post!

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
Just doing some thinking/working on this scenario…

One concept I’ve got floating around in my mind is the possibility of using the goody hut’s mercenary/barbarian horde feature to allow/simulate the players ability to fight/recruit Cossacks and perhaps maybe Crimean Tartars/Mongols. During this period of history, the Cossack’s weren’t purely on the side of Russia yet – while they did cause the Poles a lot of havoc, sometimes there were Cossacks on the Polish side (they weren’t called “free-booters” for nothing! ) So I’d like to simulate this by assigning Cossacks to the mercenary/barbarian slots, which means if you enter a goody hut, you might get some friendly Cossack mercenaries, or a horde of Cossacks just waiting to slaughter you.

Have you thought about the fact that huts can give FOUR things? Techs, gold, friendly units, and enemy hordes. Maybe if the events giving techs/gold were deleted from the game.txt...just a thought.

[GhostOfDisco]

Hmmm. after some thought, I think I'll make the Tartars part of the Ottoman civ.

Did some looking at city populations, and made some estimates based on scenarios roughly around the era I'm looking at (Carolus, Gustavas Regis, Casus Belli). It's incomplete (some cities - like Kosice), I'm not sure of the accuracy of the claims, but still.

From what I've read, it seems that Poland really didn't have many big cities (Gdansk/Danzig seems to have been the largest), but since Civ 2 cities are not just the city itself, but the surrounding area, I think I can have its cities be bigger than their strict urban populations.

Anyway, here's the latest update in my city placement/population stuff, and I'd like your advice, comments etc. on it:

[GhostOfDisco]

Here's a list of units I currently plan to have in the game:
(Regular)
Poland
Hussar
Pacerni
Dragoon
Infantry, pre-reform (musket) (?)
Infantry, pre-reform (pike) (?)
Infantry, reform
Grenadier
Light Cavalry(?)
Haiduk infantry (?)

Russia
Gorodovye infantry (garrison units)
Vybrannye infantry (guard units, stationed in Moscow)
Kormovye infantry ("enlisted" infantry)
Reiters
Lancers
Hussars (apparently modeled after the Polish, but w/out wings and shields)
Boyars (?)

Turkey
Janissary
Jannisary (pike) (?)
Saphis
Turkish cannon (apparently not as good as Western cannon at the time of Vienna, if Wikipedia is to be believed)
Sappers
Non-janissary infantry (?)
Crimean Tartar cavalry (?)

Imperial
Infantry
Infantry (pike) (?)
Cavalry
Dragoons

Swedish
Infantry
Infantry (pike) (?)
Reiter
Dragoon

Brandenberg
Infantry
Infantry (pike) (?)
Cavalry
Dragoon

Generic/Multiple players
Artillery
Warship (for transport/sea combat ... I know that Poland's navy was basically nothing, and that 99.9% of everything in the scen will probably be land-based, but in case someone wants to do some ahead-of-its-time amphibious stuff (land hussars outside of Riga! Invade Sweden!) or something...)
Crimean Tatars (?)
Cossack cavalry (?)

Special
Poland
John Sobieski
John III Sobieski (once he's crowned king)
Polish Hetman
Lithuanian Hetman

Imperial
Vienna outskirts ("air" unit that Pasha must destroy in order to create the Turkish camp)

Ottoman
Pasha

Hope I'm not leaving any units out and/or have too many units for ToT. Any comments?

Also, before I forget it, the salt mine near Cracow is Wieliczka!

(Also, given the time period, would 30 Years' War or 7 Years' War uniforms be more accurate?)

[curtsibling]

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