Jan III Sobieski scenario

[GhostOfDisco]

I don't need it tonight, but it's difficult to playtest without knowing what any of that entails.

Well, here's two out of three:
Well, it's been asked what the objective are. Here's a summary:
Recover Lost Lands: Most prominently among these would be the Ukraine. Although Chmielnicki aligned his Cossacks with the Tsar with the 1654 Treaty of Perejaslav, Moscow's hold on that region was by no means certain. It is quite possible that the Polish-Lithuanian Republic could have reclaimed these lands; however, it did not, and the permanent loss of the Ukraine has been cited by many historians as the main thing that tipped the balance in favor of Moscow, allowing said power to become a Great Power in the following century and eventually make good on the Tsar's claim as "Caesar of All the Russias."
The other major "lost land" to be reclaimed is Prussia. With the Treaty of Oliva in 1660 Frederick William, the "Great Elector" managed to get the King Jan II Casimir to release Ducal Prussia from royal vassalage (in return, Frederick would fight Sweden with Poland, instead of the other way around). This independence would allow Frederick's son to declare himself "King of Prussia" and further expand Brandenburg's power ... at Poland's expense. Many in Poland believed said treaty to be morally invalid (as it had been contracted (arguably) during duress (the Swedish-Muscovite invasions)) and in fact Sobieski, as king, plotted with France and Sweden to take Prussia back from the sneaky elector (it never happened for a number of reasons.) As well as removing Prussia's threat to Poland-Lithuania's Baltic lands, there were "internal" reason for Sobieski to try and take this land: establishing his son as Duke of Prussia would have given his family a power-base above the other magnates, as well as a a stepping stone on which to establish a hereditary Sobieski dynasty.
Internal Reform: Poland-Lithuania's government in/famously had its ... drawbacks. The envoys to the Sejm were bound by the written instructions that the sejmiks (local assemblies) that elected them had given them, and of course there was always the infamous liberum veto. There were attempts at reform in this period, though: in 1658 Jan II Casimir presented to the Sejm a program of reform which included removal the envoys from the sejmiks' control, voting by 2/3rds majority and election of the king's successor vivente rege (while the king was still living). Of course, when Sobieski was king, the only way for him to rule effectively would be to have a power-base to set himself above the other magnates, who tended to act like little independent monarchs. Not sure how to simulate all this: Communism (the most obvious choice for an absolutist monarchy) is given to Moscow and Austria (along with the titles Tsar and Emperor, as for some reason when I convert a sav to a scenario it nixes all custom titles), and Democracy has no corruption, but it has more unhappiness per military unit outside cities (and nearby forts) as well as forcing you to sign any treaty/cease fire the AI offers you (though that last effect could be migitated by making the UN "Abolition of Liberum Veto/Majority Voting" or something). I'm not sure on all on this...
The third main objective (as in goal, not "objective") is to establish a Sobieski dynasty, but writing these things up takes a long time, so this is all for now.

[AGRICOLA]

Empire building was definitely in vogue in the 17th century. As far as I was concerned, that was enough rationale for this scen and for Poland grabbing everything that wasn't nailed down.

My game is now in Sept '72. The Tartars are somewhat ancient history and Sweden has just capitulated.

Thanks for the obvious tip in Aug '72 - the AI doesn't sacrifice that many units for nothing. Smelling really big trouble, King Jan led his best generals and troops to the trouble spot and ordered an additional 35 units from all over the Empire to join the 20+ units already in the area, to form garrisons and to interdict probable enemy approach routes. Probably a bit of overkill but better safe than sorry. In September there WAS a bit of a scuffle with some Turks that got through, but no worse than the ones that have been ocurring more or less regularly in the Ukraine.

Brandenburg and the Imperials are on their last feet and I'll post a summary and more comments after they give up the fight.

[curtsibling]

Well, I think I need:
Coastal Fortress
Workshop (maybe)
Iron forge
17th century equivalent of a stock exchange or "Loaner" (The Exchange representing the possiblity of Polish nobility/merchants/etc getting into investment and all that instead if sticking to the grain trade)
17th century equivalents of granary and "farmland" (i.e. "current" agricultural innovations)

Also, if it's not too much trouble, could you please make a set of RR suburbs in the "generic 17th century European" style?

Just got my latest magazines published and off to Lulu, that has detained me since mid-August.
So now I am back onto CIV2 tasks yet again. I will tackle the above Icons, and get your siege
camp done too...And perhaps also get the evens done for my own scenario...Tally ho!

[civ2units]

I´ve downloaded your scenario and played a few turns. For me it is a very good scenario and makes many fun to play.

I will post more when I played more turns.

[GhostOfDisco]

AGRICOLA, in your costly assault on Moscow, did you simply throw hordes of Cossack Storozahs at the Kremlin, or did you use other units (such as Cannons, Hetmans etc.)? I'm wondering whether I should get rid of the "Muscovites gather a big assault force to reconquer their capital" events that right now occur when you take Moscow (and the Muscovite civ isn't wiped out when you do so. :P ) Also, you do know you're not supposed to be able to build Cossack Storozahs, right? (In my current version, they're unbuildable by any civ - you can only get them via goody hut.)

[AGRICOLA]

Yes to all your points.

Playing very stupidly, I threw hordes of Cossack Storozhas at Moscow. Playing a lot smarter, the capture of Berlin cost only 8 Cossack Storozahs and 4 Diplomats. I could have used Hussars for the assault on Berlin but opted not to.

I'm writing up Turns 37 to 68, March 1673 and will post it tomorrow.

The Imperial civ was destroyed on Turn 65 and the Brandenburgers capitulated on Turn 68. You may want to check for any effect that the Imperial surrender may have on the rest of the scen because I suspect that surrender may not have been anticipated.

[curtsibling]

Ghost, where can I download the latest version?

[GhostOfDisco]

Right here!

It's the most current version on my computer, so those who downloaded my previous one should see what's changed (for one thing, unless AGRICOLA can capture a lot of goody huts, he shouldn't be able to launch massive Cossack Storozh(sp) attacks anymore! )

And I managed to upload the sounds as well!

[AGRICOLA]

Continuing from the previous progress report:


1670
Turn 36 - Jul '70_______ Moscow captured. Muscovite civ destroyed. Over half the attack units were lost in taking the city. Bloody strong garrison. Noname Tartar city razed.
Turn 37 - Aug '70______ Begin transfer of units from Moscow area to Western Poland where there are increasing incursions by Imperial, Brandenburg and Swedish units.
Turn 38 - Sep '70______ Capture Chigirin, Kherson from the Tartars and Soroca from the Turks. Make peace with the Tartars.
Turn 39 - Oct '70_______Imperials steal tech from Poles for the second time. This time Poles declare war.
Turn 40 - Nov '70_______Complete moving units to western Poland. Cancel alliances with Sweden and Brandenburg. First Hussar unit built (Krakow; Hussar/4 turns).
Turn 41 - Dec '70_______ Demand that Sweden and Brandenburg withdraw troops. Brandenburg declares war and activates alliance with Sweden. Sweden declares war. Poles capture East Prussia (Marienweder, Tilsit, Memel, Konigsberg) and Kolberg from Brandenburg; Dorpat from Sweden. Brandenburg peace offer refused.


1671
Turn 42 - Jan '71_______Capture noname Brandenburg city, rename Iron Gate, sign peace treaty. Swedes and Imperials make multiple attacks on Kolberg and Poznan but are beaten off.
Turn 43 - Feb '71_______Money extremely tight as funds desperately needed to IRB City Walls and Barracks in newly captured cities.
Turn 44 - Mar '71_______Completely, Absolutely, Unwanted upgrade of Pikemen A/D/Cost = 4/5/30 to Infantry A/D/Cost = 5/5/40. Pikemen are solely defensive units and having to pay 10 extra shields for a crummy increase in attack strength is highway robbery.
Capture Visby from the Swedes as a precursor to invading Sweden. Make peace with Swedes.
Turn 45 - Apr '71_______Tartars sneak attack.
Turn 46 - May '71_______Raze noname Tartar city. Accept Tartar peace offer.
Turn 47 - Jun '71_______Capture Olmutz from Imperials. Accept peace offer and 225,000 gold. Moscow completes Factory preparatory to building Hussars (Hussar/7 turns). Kiev builds Factory preparatory to building Hussars (Hussar/8 turns).
Turn 48 - Jul '71_______Konigsberg builds Factory preparatory to building Hussars (Hussar/6 turns).
Turn 49 - Aug '71_______Imperials sneak attack but cause no significant damage. Keslev and Kefe captured from Tartars; Quarasubazar razed; Qapi subverted. Peace treaty signed.
Jassy (Turkish) subverted. Minsk founded (54,50). If there is enough time, Minsk will be able to produce a Hussar/3 turns.
Turn 50 - Sep '71_______Byrled captured from Turks.
Turn 52 - Nov '71_______Subvert Brunn (Imperial).
Turn 53 - Dec '71_______Capture Eger from Turks.


1672
Turn 54 - Jan '72_______Kilia, Braila captured from Turks.
Turn 55 - Feb '72_______Krakow builds Adam Smith. Net monthly income reaches 265 gold . . . adequate for offensive action. Extort 325 gold from Brandenburg and 75 from Sweden.
Tartars carry out beautiful sneak attack in Ukraine but do little actual damage.
Turn 56 - Mar '72_______ Extort 150 gold from Brandenburg and 50 from Sweden, then break cease-fire with Imperials. Alliances cause Sweden and Brandenburg to declare war. Capture Vienna, Pressburg and Sathmar from Imperials. Units assembled in Visby land in Sweden and capture Karlskrona, Kalmar, Jonkoping, Norrkoping and Stockholm. Sign cease-fire with Swedes. Capture Akkerman from Tartars. There are now 10 Winged Hussar units in the Polish army.
Turn 57 - Apr '72_______Subvert Azov, capture Backschsaray and raze noname city to destroy Tartar civ.
Turn 58 - May '72_______Sign peace treaty with Swedes. There are simply too many Swedish units to handle near the Vistula and Vienna. Treaty forces them to withdraw towards Stralsund. Capture Breslau from Brandenburg.
Turn 59 - Jun '72_______Break treaty with Swedes . . . Polish reputation now so bad that one more backstab doesn't matter. Swedish Noname city razed. Linz captured from Imperials and Esztergom from Turks.
Begin war of attrition west of the Vistula to write down numerous Swedish, Brandenburg and Imperial units. Defend cities strongly and attack Infantry only on terrain with no D bonus and Cavalry on terrain with a maximum D bonus of +100%.
Turn 60 - Jul '72_______ Osijek captured from the Turks.
Turn 61 - Aug '72_______Large, unexpected Turk force detected and easily destroyed well within Polish territory. A bit of luck in that the Turk units spawned immediately north of 2 Infantry units en-route to front. Sobieski smelled a rat and drastically increased the number of Polish units in the area from ~20 to ~60 so garrisons could be greatly strengthened and access routes blocked.
Vienna completed Factory and started building Hussars (Hussar/5 turns). Overall, Hussar units are being trained at the rate of 9 Hussars/10 turns.
Turn 62 - Sep '72_______Stralsund, Frankfurt captured from Swedes; Sundsvall, Uppsala razed. Swedish civ destroyed.
Stettin captured from Brandenburg.
Weak Turkish invasion defeated with minimal losses.
Turn 63 - Oct '72_______Capture Dresden, Prague from Imperials; subvert Graz.
Turn 64 - Nov '72_______Zagreb, the last Imperial city, captured.
Turn 65 - Dec '72_______Imperial civ destroyed.


1673
Turn 66 - Jan '73_______Szekesfeherver (Turk, what a name!) subverted. Units assembling for attacks on Berlin and Fehrbellin, the last Brandenburg cities.
Turn 68 - Mar '73_______Berlin and Fehrbellin captured at a cost of 4 Diplomats and 8 Cossack Storozhas. Brandenburg civ destroyed. Takay, Szeged captured from Turks. There are now 19 Hussars in the Polish army.

This was the end of my playtest. I next checked EVENTS to see if there were any problems caused by what had happened.


COMMENTS

The destruction of the Imperial civ negates the Turkish camp event. I would suggest that, at a minimum, the Austrian Frontier unit be made unbribable. It might be even better to make all siege of Vienna events independent of the Imperial civ.

Fix the city name list so there are not so many noname cities founded by AI civs.

FYI, if you change roads on swamp terrain into RR's they become passable for all units.

The generally impassable Carpathians are very well done. They do funnel all units into a few well-placed passes.

IMHO, there is no problem with Hussars costing 200 shields. They are the 'boss' units in this scen.

Please ensure that Tartar Infantry is unbuildable by any other civ.

The scen looks very good indeed and I'm looking forward to the final version.


Regarding making Cossack Storozhas unbuildable, I would play the scen as follows:

1. Defense definitely predominates in this game. Despite innumerable attacks on Polish cities by all AI civs, by turn 68 the Poles had lost only 10 D=5 infantry units and a couple of D=4. It is a helluva lot easier to play defense than offense.

2. The Poles would build almost no offensive units until they get the techs for Hussar and Cossack cavalry units. Up to that point, it would be primarily defensive game of building Pikemen, Diplomats and Settlers.

3. Units costing 100 shields are a luxury for a civ where only Krakow produces more than 8 shields. It's production must be reserved for wonders. Diplomats, the sole Hussars and the few Polish Hetmen would have to take care of most of the offense. At most, a handful of Cannon (100 shields) might be built. IMHO, the Pacerni are overpriced for what they can do and I can see no useful role for Dragoons (A/D=5/5) in the Polish army, they are essentially a high-cost, mobile defensive unit.

4. It does mean that it would be a slow-moving scen for the first 100 - 150 turns or so. Do players like 300+ turn scens? Maybe some do but they are not among my favorites.

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I lowered a good number of units costs and such; how is this file?

[AGRICOLA]

PAX VOBISCUM

Here are the results of 30 turns of the latest version of JOHN SOBIESKI as played by AGRICOLA the PEACEFUL, the biggest pacifist candya** who ever cowered behind a city wall.

For the first 30 turns the primary objective was to ensure that all the happy inhabitants of the Polish Empire could snuggle down at night behind nice, high and secure city walls and to give the peaceful folk time to become accustomed to the sound of drill sergeants cursing Pikeman recruits at the barracks and senior civil servants screaming at the stupidity of the budding diplomats they were sending to establish embassies and to carry out other diplomatic tasks.

The only exception to the sequence of wall and barracks building, followed by training Pikemen and Diplos was in Krakow. Here, around-the-clock work built a wall around the city, a factory, a dangling GARDEN, a big DAM, a large LIBRARY, and an expatriate from the British colonies in America started a very successful TRADING COMPANY.

Meanwhile, the bootlicking diplomatic corps took every opportunity to kiss the boots, hands and a** of every king, tsar, khan, tinpot despot etc. in Europe. The Poles were so peace-loving that they even replaced the eagle on their coat-of-arms with three white doves. They were so blessedly nice to everybody that they didn't even realize that they had been at war until the Muscovites and Crimean Tartars apologetically offered to sign peace treaties. But Polish peaceful attitude should not be mistaken for Polish stupidity . . . . . . the Russians were persuaded to cough up 300k gold in reparations and the Tartars to chip in 500k for disturbing the pastoral peaceful pursuits of productive patriotic Polish peasants. BONANZA!!!


Despite the best Polish efforts, a few minor conflicts were unavoidable. When anarchy broke out in the Ottoman city of Jassy, it was a Polish diplomat who hastened to rescue the city. He ended the rioting by successfully persuading the inhabitants that they would be much happier as citizens of the Polish Empire. After this outstanding diplomatic success, only a minor amount of more forceful persuasion was needed to make the good Ottoman folks in Soroca agree that their bread was indeed buttered on the Polish side. Kiev was the unfortunate consequence of an ill-timed, ill-considered and ill-fated Muscovite attack on Dyneburg. Rather than resorting to immediate retaliatory bloodshed, Polish diplomats generously offered the good folks in Kiev the choice of either receiving a handsome one-time payment of a bag of gold or getting their heads chopped off. The populace joyfully and unanimously opted for the bags. Moscow was so shocked at this turn of events that it immediately sued for peace and happily paid 500k gold to cover Polish expenses. It is really fortunate that Poland is surrounded by so many good (and rich) neighbours.

Sorry, but I forgot to mention that The Great International Treasure Race at the start of the scen sent all Polish Light Cavalry to search remote villages for rogue mercenaries, ancient manuscripts and buried gold. Despite intense competition from Muscovite plowboys and other clodhoppers, the lads returned with high praise for the speed of Polish horses, a number of volunteers for the Polish cavalry, some ancient scrolls, and a bit of coin. They all agreed that they had a jolly good time in the friendly competition.


The peacenik approach is actually interesting to play, has very short turns and, surprisingly, works very well. After 30 turns the Polish reputation remains spotless and squeaky clean, and all the would-be Caesars that surround Poland consider Sobieski to be their favourite drinking buddy. Life in the Empire is good indeed . . . . . as, but for a few minor bugs, is the latest version of the scen



MINOR BUGS
Pollution is still alive and kicking.

There may be a problem developing in the Ukraine where Chigirin has changed hands twice and gone from size 4 at the start of the scen to its current size 2. Presently it is in the hands of the BARBARIAN Tartars. No kidding. If the city gets razed by the changes in ownership, the Poles cannot get the Control of Ukraine tech and all the good techs that follow. Might it be an idea to cut some slack in the requirement that 7 cities be captured to allow for the remote but real possibility that one is razed? Would reducing the threshold to 6 or 5 do the trick?


RULES
The RULES file that I'm playing with ( Cannon @ 80 shields, Hussars @ 150 and Cossacks @ 40 seems very fair and balanced. I think that there is a place for all three units in the Polish OOB.

I used Word to highlight the changes in @UNITS between the last scen files you posted and your very latest RULES file and checked them carefully to see how they might affect playing the Poles. Firstly, I take as a given that the Poles will need a lot of Hussars to overcome the hordes of AI units. This is why I said earlier that I was comfortable building them at 200 shields per unit. In the current game their cost has been reduced to 150 shields, making things quite a bit easier so that cities producing 7-10 shield can be put to building Hussars with some help from IRB. The Cossack units at 40 shields offer a low-cost alternate cavalry and I feel that it is a bit of a tossup whether to build 1 Hussar or 4 Cossacks for approximately the same price. In addition, the Cossacks would be operational much sooner.

In the latest RULES, the Hussar cost has been reduced to 100 shields and the cost of Cossack units has been increased to 60 shields. Furthermore, the Cossack D has been reduced from 2 to1. In my mind, it is now a no-brainer that it is far better to build a Hussar than 2 Cossacks. Cossacks have become overpriced for what they can do while Hussars have become an obvious best-buy unit.

I have no comments to offer on the other modifications except that none of them impacts playing the Poles to a significant extent.

[GhostOfDisco]

MINOR BUGS
Pollution is still alive and kicking.

Thanks for noting that. I'll need to rectify it (again.)

There may be a problem developing in the Ukraine where Chigirin has changed hands twice and gone from size 4 at the start of the scen to its current size 2. Presently it is in the hands of the BARBARIAN Tartars. No kidding. If the city gets razed by the changes in ownership, the Poles cannot get the Control of Ukraine tech and all the good techs that follow. Might it be an idea to cut some slack in the requirement that 7 cities be captured to allow for the remote but real possibility that one is razed? Would reducing the threshold to 6 or 5 do the trick?

Well, I do know that city has a tendency to change hands a lot. One idea I have is to have a Cossack Infantry spawned whenever one of the AI civs takes over the city, so that the city can be effectively defended.

That reminds me - how is Moscow (and the Garrison unit)? I've got a large amount of events where the Tsar tries to retake his home city with a huge army, but if Moscow is a tough enough nut to crack, I could get rid of such events (which I want to do, as it would free up some events space.)

I'll also adjust the cost values of the units and such. I also found it strange that Jassy was in civil disorder, as the Turks have the Fundamentalist government and (I think) the corresponding tech, and thus should be able to resist the temptation to go Despotic.

And I'll have to do something to prevent AGRICOLA from building Wonders I don't think he should be able to construct...

[techumseh]

Here are the results of 30 turns of the latest version of JOHN SOBIESKI as played by AGRICOLA the PEACEFUL, the biggest pacifist candya** who ever cowered behind a city wall.

Who are you, and what have you done with AGRICOLA?

[curtsibling]

Right here!

It's the most current version on my computer, so those who downloaded my previous one should see what's changed (for one thing, unless AGRICOLA can capture a lot of goody huts, he shouldn't be able to launch massive Cossack Storozh(sp) attacks anymore! )

And I managed to upload the sounds as well!

Thanks, sir!

I'll get a playtest over the weekend and give you a report!

[AGRICOLA]

Who are you, and what have you done with AGRICOLA?

The evil twin has been sent into exile and the good twin has been put in charge. Rumor has it that the evil one is plotting to return if Goody-Goody-Two-Shoes slips up whatsoever.

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco

That reminds me - how is Moscow (and the Garrison unit)? I've got a large amount of events where the Tsar tries to retake his home city with a huge army, but if Moscow is a tough enough nut to crack, I could get rid of such events (which I want to do, as it would free up some events space.)

Gentlemen do not spy on their friends.

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco

And I'll have to do something to prevent AGRICOLA from building Wonders I don't think he should be able to construct...

And how would you have good ol' peace lovin' Johnny 'The Good' Sobieski spend the 1,300 gold donated by his neighbourhood pals if not for the good of his pipple? Riotous, debauched living?

Shame on you!

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco

I also found it strange that Jassy was in civil disorder, as the Turks have the Fundamentalist government and (I think) the corresponding tech, and thus should be able to resist the temptation to go Despotic.

Good things happen to good leaders. Goodness pays!