The Balkans Wars

[McMonkey]

I knew this would happen. I think it will end up being a 50/50 split.

Another solution would be to make the game for MGE to begin with. When I get feedback I can work out how to improve it and use the extra ToT units and events space to create an ultimate ToT version. That way everybody is happy. ToT will act as my creative reserve and give me flexibility.

I think I will start go for MGE initially as it is already in that format, it is PBEM friendly and I already have all the units I need in that scale. If I make it in ToT first it would be hard (possibly impossible) to convert back to MGE.

[Gagliaudo]

well... to complete MGE version then to convert/modify it in TOT ?? (and everybody happy)

have a nice time, Curt

[edit: whops! I posted too late... Werd already reply to Curt...]

[McMonkey]

PARTITION

I thought a few maps may be helpful to explain the situation in the Balkans in 1912/13 to those not too familiar with the details.

I have been interested in these conflicts for so long I just assume everyone knows the background. I realise it is not a subject widely covered, though most people know about the assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand and the buildup to the First World War.

The attraction for the Balkans war as civ scenario is the unpredictable nature of the alliances, plenty of betrayal which the civ engine does well. The wars are also interesting as the allied nations goals themselves conflicted with each other. Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece all wanted to grab as much territory as possible from the Ottomans with cities like Salonika, Monastir and Constantinople all up for grabs. Throw into this explosive mix the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Montenegro, Romania, Russia, the British and French Empires, Italy, Germany and the Albanians and you have the elements of a great scenario...I hope

[McMonkey]

A map of the homelands of the peoples of the Balkans at the time of the wars.

[Gagliaudo]

Werd: nice maps! (I had the same atlas - in italian of course!)
thanx

[McMonkey]

OBJECTIVES

At the moment I am trying to work out the victory conditions and objectives. I would like to know what people think as it is quite crucial for the game!

<9 Points = Shame
9 Points = Marginal Victory
10 Points = Decisive Victory (Should be very hard to achieve, especially as Greece!)

SERBIA
---------
*Scutari (Attacked by the Montenigrans)
*Uskub (Serb name Skopje, in Macedonia)
*Novibazar (Assisted by Montenigrans)
*Monastir (Serb name Bitola)
*Salonika
+
Hold Belgrade, Kraguyevats, Nish, Valjevo and Cetinje.

BULGARIA
------------
*Uskub
*Monastir
*Salonika
*Adrianople (or Edirne)
*Constantinople (or Istanbul)
+
Hold Sofia, Widin, Silistria, Varna and Philippopolis

GREECE
----------
*Janina
*Salonika
*Kavalla
*Constantinople
*Smyrna
+
Hold Athens, Larissa, Volos, Arta and Naxos

I need to sort out the city names as they are currently in many different languages. If you have any opinions on what certain cities shold be called I would be interested to discuss it, otherwise I will let Wikipedia guide me!

[Gagliaudo]

Re: OBJECTIVES

at first look, it sounds good
here some city names... (Wiki can help)
About the choice of city names, there 2 theories:
1) use ONE language (commonly english)
2) for every civ, his own language... (good, but not simple, mostly in Balkan Wars' situation...)



Scutari / Shkodra or Shkodër (albanian)
Uskub / Skopje
Novibazar / Novi Pazar
Monastir / Bitola or Bitolj (serb in 1913)/ Bitolja or Bitolya (bulg)
Salonika /Thessalonike /Thessaloniki
Belgrade / Beograd
Kraguyevats / Kragujevac
Nish / Niš
Adrianople / Edirne (turk)/ Adrianoupoli (gre)/ Odrin (bulg)
Constantinople / Istanbul (better, IMHO)/ Costantinoupolis
Sofia / Sofija?
Widin/ Vidin
Silistra
Philippoupoli (greek)/ Plovdiv (bulgarian) / Filibe (turk)
Janina / Ioannina
Kavalla (albanian) / Kavala (greek)
Smyrna / Smyrne / Izmir
Athens / Athina
Larissa/Larisa

Originally posted by Werd100
At the moment I am trying to work out the victory conditions and objectives. I would like to know what people think as it is quite crucial for the game!

I need to sort out the city names as they are currently in many different languages. If you have any opinions on what certain cities shold be called I would be interested to discuss it, otherwise I will let Wikipedia guide me!

[McMonkey]

What I may do is give the city the name relevant to the nation controlling it at the start of the game and provide a list of the city names in other languages so the player can rename them if they so wish (though if they care enough to do that they probably know the proper name anyway!). This can work with the events (city captured) so that a message only pops up the first time a city is captured, IE "Greeks capture Istanbul and rename it Constantinople".

[Gagliaudo]

Originally posted by Werd100
What I may do is give the city the name relevant to the nation controlling it at the start of the game and provide a list of the city names in other languages so the player can rename them if they so wish (though if they care enough to do that they probably know the proper name anyway!). This can work with the events (city captured) so that a message only pops up the first time a city is captured, IE "Greeks capture Istanbul and rename it Constantinople".

indeed

"Greeks capture Istanbul and rename it "Constantinoupoli"

keep on

[McMonkey]

I can see many hours on wikipedia scratching my head lay in store for me!

I still have to make some important decisions. Exactly which year should the game start, how many turns, turn length, do I include WWI etc... The more I read the more conflicting ideas I have

Wikipedia is really helpful though, quite a lot of the read me and description files are going to be lifted straight from their pages!

[McMonkey]

Advice needed

Advice needed.

I am trying to decide what to do!

Option 1 - Balkan Wars 1 & 2 (Oct 1912 - July 1913)
Weekly turns would equal about 40 turns overall. Is this long enough?

I want to create a feeling of pressure as the war was essentially a race between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece to grab as much territory as they could before each other and before the great powers forced a peace onto them. This would have the advantage of being more focused and I could use the events more efficiently.

Option 2 - Balkan Wars + WWI (1912-1918)
Monthly turns would equal about 75 turns overall which would seem reasonable.

This scenario would have more external involvement but may be harder to get right given the limited MGE events space.

While wrighting this I have kind of convinced myself to go for Option 1 MGE and later on Option 2 ToT plus an improved version of version 1 for ToT.

Still, is 40 turns long enough?

[AGRICOLA]

I don't see why 40 turns should not be adequate for a scen with limited objectives. I found Boco's El Aurens, a scen that models a single campaign, an absolute blast to play for its max of 36 turns. Like Balkan Wars, it is very much a race against time and puts great pressure on players.

[Heresson]

hm, very interesting. I'd rather someone (varwnos?) make better city graphics, though

[McMonkey]

Re: Game Length
I have been giving this a lot of thought as I don't want to rush into any blind alleys. I think I need to reign back my natural desire to build the biggest, longest game possible and concentrate on a shorter more intense objective based game. 40 turns should be plenty as there will be some quite large armies to manage and I shouldn't run out of events space (though there is never really enough in MGE, especially for text!).

Re: Cities
I quite like my current city choice but I am quite willing to have an alternative set included in the game folder so people have a choice! I did discuss cities with Varwnos a while ago, I think his medieval Byzantine style sets could be adapted!

I need to decide which order to design the versions in. I thought:
1, Greece (For Tanelorn and Varwnos)
2, Serbia (For Radyserb at Webring)
3, Bulgaria (They go last as I don't know any Bulgarians!)

[tanelorn]

I 've been to Bulgaria once. Like waay back in the 80s when they were a communist state and they had a decent medical system. Communism in practice was very unfortunate for the Bulgarians themselves, as far as I can remember. Not that they fare better nowdays, far from it. I hope they 'll benefit from EU membership. I have a couple of Bulgarian friends and an ex-colleague to ask, though the Balkan wars is the one topic I'll never pick with them, as you can imagine. That's why you don't see me spamming this thread. The topic is a bit too touchy for many people from the region. It is a worthwhile scenario topic, if one can avoid being partial.