The Vietnam War development thread

[McMonkey]

CH-47 Chinook

The Chinook is a strong contender to be included and is the last one I will post a picture of. If anyone decides they love making choppers they cannot stop, then a CH-34 Chocktaw, CH-21 Shawnee, Sikorsky CH-3 and CH-54 Sky Crane would be cool, could not guarentee they would get in the game though! (The MGE version anyway!)

[McMonkey]

Originally posted by communism
Well here's my Vietnam Scenario

What is bugging me is all the bugs (no pun intended) in my trying to create NLF units in and around Saigon. I need some play testers to help me see what's wrong with this scenario.

Can't even stop negotiation between all the tribes. Which is weird. Can't even create units in any area, even in areas where there's no one there! Why does it keep doing this?

I will have a proper look when I get a chance, the storms ripping through blighty right now are keeping me pretty occupied at work, tonight I just want to chill out and build my map.
The map looks good and I think your scenario could be fun. When you say you cannot create units do you mean via events. There were no Create Unit type events in the Event file.

Later

[McMonkey]

Developing map

I have just added the borders to the map as well as finished the Mekong river. I'm taking a wee rest as my eyeballs are actually bleeding!
The map, as you can see, is a bit on the large side! I think with carefully placed Communist bases and a good events file it will work though (I hope), its all a bit of an experiment.
This is only half the map, the South of South Vietnam and eastern Cambodia. The grid is how I copy and plan and will be deleted later. So far there is only jungle, water and major city markers (orange dots). Once the terrain is finished it should look the part.
Oh yeah, I am aware that the map is on its side, there is a reason for this that I will go into later!

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by communism
Can't even stop negotiation between all the tribes. Which is weird.

Here is what I used in Pomarj, and it works fine!

Unless I am badly mistaken, the "Anybody" works fine with negociations, it's only with "unitkilled" that it doesn't work!

@IF
NEGOTIATION
talker=Anybody
talkertype=HumanOrComputer
listener=Anybody
listenertype=HumanOrComputer
@THEN
@ENDIF

Can't even create units in any area, even in areas where there's no one there! Why does it keep doing this?

As Werd wrote, it might be because you didn't include any unit creating event...

More seriously: could you please post an example of an unit creating event that didn't work, so that I could analyse it?

[McMonkey]

I am trying to design a few sneaky units, such as an Ambush and/or Landines. I have a few ideas on how to make these work but would like to know if anyone has seen it done before and could tell me the pros and cons.

It would be easy to make a unit graphic that was a direct copy of the Jungle terrain and was therefore invisible. If a player was to move directly into this unit it would fight it and even if not killed, would recieve some damage and its movement would be disrupted. The flaw is that many players will send a unit from a-b and as soon as the unit comes to an ambush it will stop, the ambush could then be bypassed. Would giving the ambush a defence of 0 and then creating an event when it is destroyed work? Is there a good way of doing this type of unit?
If anyone has any ideas let me know.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Werd100
It would be easy to make a unit graphic that was a direct copy of the Jungle terrain and was therefore invisible.

Or even easier: make a invisible (ie with no graphics except the transparent colour) unit!

And don't forget to use the submarine flag, effectively making it invisible to most units!

If a player was to move directly into this unit it
would fight it and even if not killed, would recieve some damage and its movement would be disrupted. The flaw is that many players will send a unit from a-b and as soon as the unit comes to an ambush it will stop, the ambush could then be bypassed.

What do you mean by that?

Would giving the ambush a defence of 0 and then creating an event when it is destroyed work? Is there a good way of doing this type of unit?
If anyone has any ideas let me know.

What you could do is trigger an event when the unit is killed that changes the terrain around the killing-spot, which would destroy all units on the changed squares!

But:
1) this might destroy more units than you would like
2) you have the same problem as with the other solution if the ambush is bypassed!

So I would stick with the "hidden" defensive unit as an ambush, which would have as consequences that:
- cautious players would never, or at least not often, fall into an ambush
- rash players (that's me ) would sometimes encounter nasty surprises

Of course, there might well be a better solution I have overlooked...

[communism]

Originally posted by Cyrion


Here is what I used in Pomarj, and it works fine!

Unless I am badly mistaken, the "Anybody" works fine with negociations, it's only with "unitkilled" that it doesn't work!

@IF
NEGOTIATION
talker=Anybody
talkertype=HumanOrComputer
listener=Anybody
listenertype=HumanOrComputer
@THEN
@ENDIF



As Werd wrote, it might be because you didn't include any unit creating event...

More seriously: could you please post an example of an unit creating event that didn't work, so that I could analyse it?

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=NLF Inf.
attacker=ANYBODY
defender=Liberation Front
@THEN
CREATEUNIT
unit=NLF Inf.
owner=Liberation Front
veteran=no
homecity=none
locations
12,114
endlocations
@ENDIF

That's standard right? Yet it won't allow me to create units, says that there was an error in the events manual and that I should debug it.

[McMonkey]

Cyrion
Nice one mate. I did not know that changing the terrain under a unit killed it! This is something worth experimenting with. As you say, a cautious player will rerely walk straight into a trap as the game cancels out of an a-b move when you enter an enemy units zoc. Ambushes may still be useful as delaying tools and as it happens the landmine/mine unit may be essential to the whole MRF concept. I will not go into this too much right now as I am still fathoming it myself!
I have attached development screenshot of the Mekong Delta and canal system below, this will be the area that the MRF will be developed (tech-tree) and deployed in!

The problem with using a completely see through unit graphic is that you still see the shield, unless there is a way of hiding this with the blue dot placement thingy!? By using a carbon copy of the Jungle terrain you hide the shield behind the 'Jungle/Ambush' unit so you cannot see it on the main map (unless you click on each square and look on the menu bar on the right!).
This means you can only realy put ambush units in Jungle squares. This whole subject is worthy of more discussion, at the moment I am a bit drunk and do not want to waffle too much as I have to get up at 5am and its already midnight and I am probably talking b******s!

Re. Moving from a-b. What I meant by that is this: When you left click and send a unit down a road from (for example) London to Edinburgh the unit will stop if it comes in contact with an enemy unit. If it automatically fought the enemy unit then ambushes/landmines would work. As you know your unit stops and you get the option of wether to attack or not! This is the flaw in the whole ambush unit concept. Not many people will choose to be ambushed!
I know there is a way of doing this, we need to think laterally!
Oh, and I appologise for the amount of times I used the exclamation mark in this post!!!

Communism. I think there is a way of setting an automatic debug. I have seen it in other events files but never needed to use it myself. I usually go through my events and isolate each one until I find out ehich one is causing it. I then double check it against someone elses example and try it on its own until I get it to work!
Hope you sort it, I was having problems with city colours/flags/nations earlier, you've just got to keep messing about till the f****r works!

Good luck.

Thanks for input guys and goodnight.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Werd100
The problem with using a completely see through unit graphic is that you still see the shield, unless there is a way of hiding this with the blue dot placement thingy!?

Luckily, there is a way with the blue dots!

If you place the blue dots as far to the right and down as possible, you won't see any shield!

Re. Moving from a-b. What I meant by that is this: When you left click and send a unit down a road from (for example) London to Edinburgh the unit will stop if it comes in contact with an enemy unit. If it automatically fought the enemy unit then ambushes/landmines would work. As you know your unit stops and you get the option of wether to attack or not!

OK, that's what I thought you meant!

I'm not sure, but I guess that if your landmine has the sub flag and your unit can't detect submarine, you might well see it attack the mine without stopping!

But you need to check on that...

@ communism: I'll try to check it for you!

[tanelorn]

I had made a crappy attempt at a nemo-esque dacota some years back, I don't think it's at par with today's Fairliney standards...
There's a spiffy Bebro Cobra in the first couple of modern units pafes I think.
Keep up the good work

[Cyrion]

Explanation

@ communism

OK, I found where your problem is! (I think... )

The problem comes from the name Liberation Front: in your .scen file, you saved it with 4 spaces after the name ("Liberation Front "), whîch means that the event file can't recognize the name of the civ!

So you just need to edit your .scen file, remove those unneeded spaces and it will work fine!

[McMonkey]

Cut and Paste

I am just adding these comments from another thread as they relate to my query over Ambush and Landmine units. The original posts were by Agricola and Boco!
I am mostly doing this to keep track of ideas and also I am getting confused!!!

Werd100:
-------------
Just going off subject slightly here. I am making a Vietnam scenario and plan to have a few snaeky units such as Ambush and Landmines (both of which could feature in a WWII scn!) and am trying to work out the best way to use them. I have a few ideas but was wondering if these type of units have been made before and what were the pros and cons.
I may use the landmines as a cheep and relitively harmless harrasment unit but I would like to find a way of making the Ambush deadly!
If anyone has any suggestions I would appreciate it.

Agricola:
-----------
I know of 2 designers who have used mines.

Eivind in his Norwegian Campaign and Captain Nemo in Red Front and Second Front.

IIRC, Eivind's are visible but hard to see and will sink any ship (and plane??).

In Red Front, Nemo has both visible ones (barriers) and one b***ard that is invisible but stationary (river mine). Either one easily kills a ship or plane.

In Second Front, Nemo again has visible mines to form barriers and a second, nasty, invisible type that can move a bit. The barrier ones are deadly; the 'movers' not quite so bad with their A/D=8/6. The latter can be safely blown up (killed) by a/c.

Boco:
-------
I've been using mines at sea in El Aurens much as you intend to use land mines. If you set their defenses at a level that is likely only to take off a fraction of the intended target's hp's, they serve two purposes: (1) they use up 1mf to attack, and (2) they may cause damage that both slows down and damages the target. I also use multiple copies per square. In EAv2, this creates a little tension. How many mines should you knock out before retiring to a haven safe from counterattack?

Air units will fight them as well. If you don't want that, perhaps you can couple land mines with AAA/SAM-sites (AEGIS flag) in the same square. If AAA/SAM-sites are invincible to air units, then the player will have to take out all the landmines before he can attack the remaining AAA/SAM-site(s) with a land unit.

In ToT, you can use both the "invisible until attack" and conventional submarine flag in concert, which has a number of benefits.

With Ambushes, perhaps you can use air missile units. The AI strongly prefers to use them against expensive units. In addition, I strongly suspect that any square that is within range of any AI city, regardless of whether that local city has a missile in it, is within range of all missiles in the AI's possession. The missile will certainly 'hop' over units to strike its target, even when completely surrounded.

While you're at it, you could make a nuisance paratrooper unit for the AI. Any time the AI encounters an empty city, it will prefer to capture it with a paratrooper. Perhaps this can represent a Vietcong cadre.

Werd100:
-------------
To Agri
I have used sea mines before in a Balkans campaign I tried to build. The mines were used for blocking the Dardanelles and protecting costal cities. One thing I considered was combining a sea and land mine into one static unit. I will deffinately need sea mines in my Vietnam scenario.

To Boco
I suppose making landmines modestly affective will work best, they can be defeated but at the cost of some hitpoints and movement. I do not want whole units being wiped out by stepping on a mine!
Is it possible to give a land/sea mine unit the x2 vs Air ability? It seems unrealistic to me for planes to be able to clear mines! And as it happens I need to discourage planes from clearing sea mines in my Vietnam scenario, its quite vital actually!

I really like the idea of a roving (missile) Ambush! I will have to test this one out. It could be quite short range and on the AI turn 'ambush' US units that stray too close to VC bases. A text event would be quite cool to go along with this unit!

The idea of a VC unit with paradrop ability makes a lot of sense. It would add to the communists illusive nature! As I plan two versions of the Vietnam game, giving the VC wierd abilities should not cause a problem in the US version.

[McMonkey]

Puff the Magic Dragon

Originally posted by tanelorn
I had made a crappy attempt at a nemo-esque dacota some years back, I don't think it's at par with today's Fairliney standards...
There's a spiffy Bebro Cobra in the first couple of modern units pafes I think.
Keep up the good work

Could I see your Dakota Tanelorn. Even if its not A1 it could be modified! My attempts at graphics consist of cuting things up in Paint. I have made a Spooky gunship of sorts but I don't think the plane I used was a Dakota in the first place!
Cheers

[McMonkey]

Cyrion
Blue dots sorted. I will need to do that with a new unit/event thingy I have thought up! Thanks

I think I am going to go for landmines as a delaying and harrasment type unit to protect approaches to cities etc...
Sea mines will be seperate and will be used to protect the rivers until the MRF becomes available. Prior to this time the only naval unit that moves (Carriers will be static!) will be a transport unit that will not be able to destroy mines and take troops up the Mekong river. I will also make the sea mine x2 vs air units to stop them being easily destroyed by B-52 striles!

I think I will use Boco's idea for a roving (missile) ambush unit, see above for details. I will need to test this one out to see if it works!

Thanks for the input, its really getting my thinking!

[McMonkey]

Versions

I just wanted to put this in the thread to see what people think as well as to keep a record for myself!

I plan to make two versions of the game. Version one will be playable as the US and the events, tech tree and enemy abilities/stats will all be designed to make it a challenge for the human player.
Version two will be for the Communists (VC/NVA) and its events, tech tree and stats will be quite different as there are many units in the US version that the AI would not use properly!

I intend to use the same map and graphics and will place the cities/roads and at that point I will save a master copy from which I can make the two versions!

Does this make sense? Has anyone got any tips to make this task easier?

I will post a few other ideas below for you to mull over!