NEW - WWII Europa Scenario released!

[Exile]

Just a thought . . . .

Ever thought of making a gigamap of great britain?

[McMonkey]

I could be persuaded if there was a serious project in the offing! Something like the Roman invasion of Britain and the Dark Ages, Saxon and Viking Britain until the Norman invasion or a new English Civil War scenario!

Also I could finally put my beloved Hastings on the map!

[McMonkey]

Version 2 for ToT

I have jsut gone through this thread and the one at CFC and compiled a list of things to do in version two (a surprisingly tedious task!).
During the course of this I have come up with a few questions.

1. Is there a list of the spacial effects that all the tech slots have? I had problems with placing Nuclear fission and Flight in the wrong places!

2. How do you make Partizans work? I They don't seem to appear in the game. I may have the Partizan unit in the wrong slot or may have given the Soviets the wrong techs. Again if there is a page about this somewhere please let me know.

Version two for ToT will be made one day soon. Just got to finish my Nam scenario first!

[Boco]

There's a link to a very useful partisan discussion in the middle of Civ2 Great Library Index #2 .

[Eivind IV]

Check out my Tech Tree Thread (including a tech tree template where the effect of every tech is written beside it): http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=137028

Also, communism (;cmn) activates partisans.

[Exile]

Actually . . .

take a look at the Design Tips thing in the Scenario League. Communism makes a city produce MORE partisans, but ONLY if the city-owning civ has Guerilla warfare.

If you wanna know what the slots do, take a look at the whole essay and list. Also see Koby's essay and list for more depth.

[McMonkey]

Thanks for the info guys, it was exactly what the doctor ordered!

Now as well as building a scenario I have to try and learn the tech trees oddities, work out batch files, attempt to learn hex-editing and remember not to put the wrong unit in the Knight slot! My poor brain.

This info will make my task a hell of a lot easier though, Thanks.

[techumseh]

Actually...

Go to the Cradle of Civilization site: http://coc.apolyton.net/guides/index.shtml William Keenan's tip deals with the slot properties for Test of Time, which are somewhat different than those of FW/MGE.

[McMonkey]

Thanks Tech
That was exactly what I was looking for. I need to gather in all this info for easy reference, so much to do, so little time!

[Eivind IV]

My bad about communism.

Out of curiosity, Tech, what's different? I took a quick look down the list, and couldn't see anything particular.

[techumseh]

For example, Invention and Philosophy give Renaissance style cities. You are right however, it's mostly the same.

edit: I just checked, and this change is not in William's ToT list. However, it should be.

One other significant change is that units with engineering abilities and units which are free to fundamentalist governments are no longer limited to one slot each. In Test of Time, these abilities are controlled by a flag in the Rules Txt.

[AGRICOLA]

Overall, this is a good scen that needs a bit of tweaking because some aspects do not seem to quite hang together. The main problem, as I see it, is that the severe corruption that monarchy suffers on a mega map, the low freight delivery bonuses and the nature of the tech tree combine to create an archaic economy. The interaction of these factors is complex, so I'll consider them one at a time.

TECH TREE:
The Allies start the scen and play at least some of it without techs which ancient and medieval civs possessed. The Allies have a linear tech tree and need to discover the following number of techs in order to build some pretty basic improvements as well as a some units.

US Armor, US Fighter, US Bomber (no problem) -1 tech
US Fighter-bomber, US Heavy Armor, Mobile Arty (no problem) - 2 techs
Courthouse - 6 techs (vital for a monarchy)
Granary - 11 techs (vital)
Mass Transit - 16 techs (immaterial as there is no pollution)
Recycling Center -16 techs (again, immaterial)
Bank - 21 techs (vital)
Supermarket - 21 techs (vital)
Atomic Bomb - 24 techs (possibly important, depends on the player)
Stock Exchange (vital), Superhighways (important), Police Station (immaterial) - 25 techs

Although Supermarkets can be built, the Refrigeration tech needed for improving irrigation to farmland cannot be researched.

The tech tree uses the Invention and Flight slots so that initial delivery bonuses are reduced by 2/3 after 10 techs have been discovered. Also, the freights are actually caravans because the Allies don't have The Corporation, thus further reducing delivery payouts. I don't know whether all these payout reductions are intentional.

I found the Tech system to be somewhat illogical so I set the prerequisites for city improvements to nil, gave Refrigeration and The Corporationto the Allies, and kept the 25 techs in the tech tree but reworked them to avoid the Invention and Flight slots.

This seemed to work reasonably well although income became rather high during the winter of 42-43 when 30 or more freights were delivered each turn to the Axis cities in Sicily.

TRADE:
I realize that part of the purpose of the scen is to necessitate Atlantic convoys. Convoys from the U.S. to Europe are practical for the first 30-40 turns of the scen but, eventually, the U.S. cities can build few or no freights per turn and other trade routes must take over. Initally, to get a reasonable return on freights, I found it necessary to use Rotterdam as the city of choice for delivering freights. It was allowed to remain in German hands even after it could have been captured. Subsequently, once mainland Italy was conquered, Reggio became the port from which transports and freighters delivered freights from Britain, continental Europe and Africa to the 3 German cities on Sicily. That was rather nice because, between Rotterdam and the 3 Sicilian cities, the same 8 commodities remained in demand forever, a little-known bonus of trading with barbarians or an enemy.

Unless EVENTS are changed to spawn freights in U.S. cities, the only useful role of Atlantic convoys (or airlifts if one doesn't feel like wasting a lot of time shuffling freighters back and forth) is to take freights that carry items demanded by Rotterdam from European cities to the U.S. for rehoming. Convoys or airlifts can then to carry them back to Europe for delivery to Rotterdam.

IMHO, the idea that Atlantic convoys are the lifeblood of the Allies cannot be maintained throughout the scen. Once the Allies start conquering cities in continental Europe, by far the most rewarding trade routes are with the Sicilian cities.


GOVERNMENT
Under Monarchy and with a mega map, the corruption is so severe that there is an ever increasing income deficit as more territory is conquered, even if trade routes and economic city improvements are maxed out. Monarchy is meant for a fairly young and small civ and is very difficult to work with in a modern setting unless the terrain is highly favorable for trade development (see curtsibling's latest Bitterfrost).

In this scen, income is limited by a shortage of trade producing squares around many cities (shield production is no problem because there are lots of forests, hills and mountains, even in Britain and along the eastern seaboard of N. America), RR's are not buildable, and key income-generating improvements like Banks and Stock Exchanges are far down the tech tree.

A bit of testing showed that the problem would become increasingly severe as the scen progressed and would reach a point where, because of the low freight delivery bonuses, 5-10 freights would have to be delivered each turn just to keep afloat.

Changing the government to War Democracy (Communism) alleviated the economic problems by getting rid of corruption.


I DON'T UNDERSTAND:
1. Why capturing Antwerp gives Allies 1000 gold while taking Essen costs them 2000.

2. I can understand why the Allies pay a penalty of -10,000 gold if the Soviets capture Berlin from the Germans. The Allies would not be overjoyed with this event.

However, I do not understand why they should suffer the same penalty if Allied forces capture the city. The populace would receive a tremendous morale boost. Can't you imagine the jubilation in Britain?

3. Why ground attack a/c [Stuka, U.S. Fighter Bomber] should have the 'can attack a/c' flag.

4. The purpose of the Escort Fighter whose A/D = 0/6 and which has the 'can attack a/c' flag. This a/c can't attack anything.

5. How Sunflowers can be a resource in Woods and Timber can be a resource on Plains. I would suggest reversing them.

6. Why Superhighways have been renamed Collective Farming. I don't see how atrociously inefficient collective farms could do anything to boost trade. If the term Superhighways isn't appropriate for the historical period, Paved Roads might be an alternative.

7. Why Aqueduct has been renamed Sewer System and Sewer System has become Water Works. This is very confusing, especially as both have similar icons. In general, it might be better not to use a term from vanilla CIV to describe an entirely different city improvement in a scen. Perhaps Sewer System can be left as it is in vanilla CIV and Aqueduct renamed Water Works but with an icon entirely different from the Sewer System one.


MINOR PROBLEMS:
1. Nijmegen, Voronezh, Bialystok, Mogilev, Kaunas, Bosporus Control, Straits of Gibraltar, The White House, Poppys and Warehouses are misspelled. Also, the EVENTS file could do with a spell check.

2. City names are inconsistent. Generally, the map uses anglicized city names but there are exceptions such as Wien rather than Vienna, Nürnberg rather than Nuremberg, Königsberg etc.

3. Nitpick: The USAF did not come into existence until after WWII. During the war it was the Army Air Corps.

4. Part of the following statement in EVENTS is incorrect.
"Enigma reports recommend stationing units on grid refs A, B and C
to reduce U-Boat activity dramatically. I suggest you note co-ordinates."

One cannot block the spawning of naval units. U-boats and, for that matter, any other naval unit will spawn at the bottom of any stack of blocking units and can freely move out from under the stack and attack it.


THE GOOD STUFF
1. Unit balance is good. The Allies lost about 70 units, mainly Mobile Arty, in kicking the Axis out of continental Europe and wiping out Turkey, Spain, Portugal and the Neutrals. That seems about right for carefully orchestrated Allied attacks.

To make it tougher, you may want to give all Axis cities Barracks and station vet Panzergrenadiers rather than Inf in at least some of them.

2. Giving U-boats the 'can attack a/c' flag works very well in making them much more of a threat than they normally are. I had to adopt a very passive form of A/S warfare: use patrol bombers to regularly patrol and locate any sub that ventured close to Allied ports; send out a cruiser to sink it and then retreat back to port; don't use a/c to attack U-boats unless the attack can be made from a land square; and don't get any fancy ideas about chasing after U-boats on the open seas.

3. The map is really fun to play on. Distances really mean something in terms of the time it takes to advance.

4. The switch between winter and summer rules and movement is good. Winter campaigns become so slow and difficult that the time is better spent getting ready for spring.

5. I think that if any player perseveres and conquers all of continental Europe, then the elimination of the Axis in North Africa and the Soviets is going to be much more fun than the seqential capture of cities with stationary defenders. Both in Russia and in N Africa, the large numbers of hostile units out in the open will make things very interesting, much like vanilla CIV where there are units all over the map rather than primarily in cities.


SUGGESTIONS
1. Forbid airlifts between unconnected land masses. This will increase the importance of Atlantic convoys. IMO, they are OK within a land mass because they model RR's without giving them infinite carrying capacity each turn.

2. See if it possible to have AI civs build and use units other than a/c.

3. In Russia, make the cities on navigable rivers unable to build ships. Subs have been spotted on the Volga near Moscow.

4. Improve the A/D of A/T guns to a point where they will cause at least 50% point loss to an attacking Mv=2 unit.

5. You might try adding 4 events, 2 in Russia and 2 in Western Europe, that spawn Luftwaffe fighters and Stukas every turn. I don't think that the extra 4 units per turn will pose a problem for the units limit because the AI will quickly use them up in attacks. However, they will be an additional problem for players.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Also, the freights are actually caravans because the Allies don't have The Corporation, thus further reducing delivery payouts.

Sorry if this question isn't related to the scenario itself, but...

Do you mean that a trade unit in the freight slot brings the same amount of cash/tech than a mere caravan unless the "The Corporation" tech is at hand??

[McMonkey]

@AGRICOLA

Mate, you are a legend! This appraisal is very encouraging and will inspire me when I start on the ToT version or V2 (coming soon)!

My intention when starting this game was to do WWII on a scale that I wanted to play. I think my main contribution was the map. I admit the game does have many perculiar quirks (mistakes ) and I will therefore view Version 1 MGE as the Beta version for a much improved and expanded ToT version 2!

I will try and address some of your points in sequence.

TECH TREE:
I built this scenario before I got envolved with the Civ Forums and I struggled with it. As I wanted to get some sort of version finished I opted for a basic linear tree. At the time I was not aware of all the effects the different slots had and this has led to problems.

WWII Europa ToT will have an extensive, hopefully bug free, tech tree and science and development of new techs / units will be a part of the gameplay.

TRADE:
Again, some of the problems with trade come down to the faulty Tech Tree and lack of playtesting. I am thinking of making freight an event only unit in V2. This will make the Battle of the Atlantic more of a challenge. When this phase of the game is finished I will allow the player to develop economic improvements (banks etc...)to compensate and/or the ability to build trade units later on! This may be the hardest challenge when building V2.

GOVERNMENT:
I will take a look at this and will probably take your advice and opt for Communism (War capitalism).

I DON'T UNDERSTAND:
1. Antwerp was vital to the allied logistic effort and its capture allowed supplies to be shipped to the front directly, bypassing the Normandie route (Cherbourg and the Mulbery Harbours). Essen is a mistake. It should have either given the allies +2000 or taken it from the Axis. If I include this event in V2 I think I will give the allies the cash!

2. Ditto, it is a bit of a mistake!

3. The attack a/c flag for units such as the FW190 and Thunderbolt seem logical to me. Maybe less so for the Stuka. I could alter the rules file to remedy this.

4. The Escort fighter was supposed to go with Allied bombers on missions into Germany etc... It was an experiment that has not worked, mainly because there is no real potential in strategic bombing. I thought about making strategic bombing but to make it workable bombers would need very high attack values and that would make them too powerful as a tactical weapon!
Also I liked the Mosquito graphic and wanted to include it, looking back I think it was a bit of a waste!

It would be interesting to debate the possibility of strategic bombing at some point!

5, 6 and 7: I totally agree with all these points and they are going on the to do list, which currently stands at six pages of A4

MINOR PROBLEMS:
1. Spell check, gotcha!
I read:
"Nijmegen, Voronezh, Bialystok, Mogilev, Kaunas are misspelled."
checked my atlases and was about to get the hump and write a rude reply about Canadian atlases when I realised you meant they were spelt wrong on the game!
OOPS! (Come to think of it I am not even sure if 'Atlases is a word!)
I tend to rely on spellchecker which is built into things at work and I forget to double check elsewhere. I guess poor spelling will have a huge effect on the events!!!

2. I tended to go with what looked best to me rather than anglicizing everything. I am a regular visitor to Wien and calling it Vienna just seems wrong to me but I am willing to go with the flow on this one (especially after seeing the umlaut debate on one of the other threads!).

3 and 4. Points taken!

THE GOOD STUFF:
1. I certainly want to try and beef up the Axis defences a bit. Especially the Atlantic wall! In V2 I will try and make each unit type have its own pros and cons and create a good read me to explain them!

2. Thanks for the research on U-Boats. It will certainly play a part in V2.

3. Thanks for the kind comments on the map scale. That was one of my main reasons for making the game. I like my maps like my thread replies...LARGE!

4. I intend to work on Summer / Winter more. I like the idea of campagning seasons. I think proper winter graphics would enhance this in V2!

5. I would like to make open warfare more fun in V2 and not just a sequence of bloody sieges! your suggestions would be appreciated!

SUGGESTIONS:
1. Re: Airlifts. I suppose a few house rules would not hurt!

2. Re: Axis production. I tried to prop up the Axis with unit production events but I will try and find a better / additional solution in V2. I was especially sad not to see hordes of T-34s in Russia!

3. Re: Russian rivers with subs. I believe you create the cities while landlocked then add the ocean squares with the cheat menu and the AI still thinks it is landlocked, is this correct?

4. Re: AT guns. I intend to go through all the unit stats and make every unit useful in its designated role. Some units need to be upgraded while some are too powerful allround (ie Armour).

5. Re: Axis units Events. I intend to maximise the extra events space to make the Axis a much more prickly adversery. I think this is one of the most effective uses of events, especially when the event is reoccuring and has several fallback locations (ie in cities)!


Thanks for the time you have taken playtesting this game Agri, it is much appreciated. As soon as I have finished my new Vietnam scenario I will get on with V2 which should be quite easy to make with all these ideas incorporated (as if any scenario is ever easy lol)

Note: I have learned the hard way in the past. Always copy long posts before submitting them as retyping it all again when you internet connection crashes is extremely demoralizing! Thank god I took my own advice this time!!!

[AGRICOLA]

Do you mean that a trade unit in the freight slot brings the same amount of cash/tech than a mere caravan unless the "The Corporation" tech is at hand??

No, I didn't. My error. Should have proofread but it was late. Sorry.