NEW - WWII Europa Scenario released!

[fairline]

Originally posted by Werd100

I am getting the destinct feeling (look away Eivind ) that making ToT scenarions may be the way forward. I am searching E-Bay for a copy. Although saying that I have resisted the flashy 3-D lure of CivIII/IV!
Would be cool to get a copy of ToT and catch up on the many scenarios already out.

You won't regret buying it. Make sure you patch your copy of ToT (see Tech's site for where to DL) and visit Catfish's site for all manner of useful info and graphics:

http://users.tpg.com.au/jpwbeest/index.htm

It is the best ToT resource along with Techumseh's scenario site.

[McMonkey]

Balance

Agri
I would actually like to make the players forces MORE vulnerable to enemy air attack and will use the spare mobile AA to help out the Axis. I figure the human player is much more likely to use air power efficiently while the AI will try bombing anything within range regardless of it chances of sucess (as it does to the four AA units at the start of the game!). I don't expect the AI to use the SPAA effectively but they should be in the right place enough to make it tricky for Allied Jabos! I gusee it is possible to make land units that can attack aircraft?

Re: Engineers. I use this tactic myself but when they build fortresses immediately it takes away some of the risk! I may downgrade the engineer so you have to stack an armoured unit with him and hope you can withstand the enemy counterattack long enough to build the fortress. This will make sieges of enemy cities that much harder to conduct! What aqre your thoughts on this?

Also are there any units that are too powerful (as howitzers were in the original game) or too weak (Anti-tank)?

[McMonkey]

Originally posted by fairline





You won't regret buying it. Make sure you patch your copy of ToT (see Tech's site for where to DL) and visit Catfish's site for all manner of useful info and graphics:

http://users.tpg.com.au/jpwbeest/index.htm

It is the best ToT resource along with Techumseh's scenario site.

Fairline

I keep intending to go on E-Bay and find a copy but I am getting waylayed by other things. At the moment I am working on the Ancient game and have just finished the tech-tree. I am getting ideas for version 2 of this game and I have also started to rebuild a new larger map for the Vietnam scenario I am resurecting. While I'm on that subject I have put a low key request on the modern units thread looking for some units for the Nam era. If you have any lying about I could use that would be ace!
Only problem with getting ToT will be that all my projects would go on hold while I delve into the backlog of ToT scenarios. Really want to have a go at Operation Market Garden and El Aurens!

[AGRICOLA]

Re: Engineers. I use this tactic myself but when they build fortresses immediately it takes away some of the risk! I may downgrade the engineer so you have to stack an armoured unit with him and hope you can withstand the enemy counterattack long enough to build the fortress. This will make sieges of enemy cities that much harder to conduct! What aqre your thoughts on this?

Sorry, but your idea of downgrading engineers won't work. Pre-charging engineers or settlers gets around it. Please don't downgrade engineers, it's bad enough that they only have Mv=1 when they should have Mv=2. Any downgrade would make it a WWI scen, when picks, shovels and wheelbarrows were the order of the day. This is WWII, when Allied engineers did their work with trucks, heavy equipment and things like Bailey bridges.

From what little testing I've done, sieges are going to be bloody affairs at the best of times. The most cost-effective attack unit, mobile arty, is not all that powerful and I expect to lose as many of them as there are defenders in a city. That's tough enough.

I would actually like to make the players forces MORE vulnerable to enemy air attack and will use the spare mobile AA to help out the Axis. I figure the human player is much more likely to use air power efficiently while the AI will try bombing anything within range regardless of it chances of sucess (as it does to the four AA units at the start of the game!). I don't expect the AI to use the SPAA effectively but they should be in the right place enough to make it tricky for Allied Jabos! I gusee it is possible to make land units that can attack aircraft?

Because all the a/c in this scen are 2-turn, I have no intention of using them offensively against ground targets. There is no easier way to lose a/c than by having a damaged plane end its turn within enemy fighter range.

Vet heavy armor is more or less as good against a/c as is vet AA. I've now stacked vet heavy armor with the isolated AA's in Kent and Nazi a/c are avoiding them like the plague. Instead, they are attacking cities with AA Battery improvements. Obviously, the AI is more selective about the targets it attacks than you suggest.

Sure, you can give any unit the ability to attack a/c.

Also are there any units that are too powerful (as howitzers were in the original game) or too weak (Anti-tank)?

You hit the nail on the head about the A-T gun being a useless popgun. The only units in the scen that have Mv=2 are freights and cossack cav. As freights can't attack, that leaves the cossacks as the only unit against which A-T guns get their 50% bonus. Regarding other units, it is too early to comment.


THE GAME
In the game, the Germans attacked Scapa Flow and lost 15 units, including 2 BB and 2 CA. U-boats are bahaving somewhat more rationally in the Med. They have now left southern Italy and are steaming in a long line for Benghazi. I expect that they will eventually head for Cairo. The loss of 50+ U-boats seems to be having some effect on the number sighted by recce.

The pile of rubble that is Tobruk has been captured by the Nazis. However, a new city, Battle Harbor, is about to be founded at the NW tip of Ireland. I wasn't entirely candid about all of my reasons for razing Tobruk. I knew that I was going to need 3 city slots to ensure that trans-Atlantic convoys only end 1 turn in mid-ocean where they are exposed to U-boats and other enemy threats. Tobruk has provided one slot; Nicosia and Aleppo will provide the other two. Yes, they will be starved to death. Reducing the risk to convoys by a factor of 3 is infinitely more important than owning a couple of unproductive towns. Besides which, there will be replacements in the U.S. and Ireland.

Otherwise, freight deliveries to Rotterdam have just begun. The building program is starting to turn out a stream of heavy armor, IMHO the best defensive unit available.

The scen is playing well as far as the fighting goes but I am having a hard time trying to write a lucid explanation of why certain aspects make no sense to me. Hopefully, I can finish that in a couple of days. It's much more fun to play than to write.

[McMonkey]

Agri

-Engineers: You know something? Your right, I have done a great disservice to the engineers and that 'great piece of British engineering which is the envy of the civilized world' the bailey bridge!
I will forget downgrading engineers...now!
I may even increase their movement to two!

-It is quite possible I may have gone overboard in my underestimation of the AI, foolish of me! I just wanted to make the game a challenge. I must confess I only playtested up to about turn 50 about four or five times. By this point I got sick of starting again and doing the same things. I will implement all of these minor mods (minus new tech tree!) and have a good playtest before I start on version 2 in ernest!

-I did not think of the implication of making fighter-bombers 2-turn movers. I would hate to have created a game where T-Bolts and rocket firing Typhoons cannot embark on Rhubarb missions over occupied France, rough up Gerry and be back in base in time for last orders at the bar, What What!

-'Can any ground unit attack a/c?'. Not sure why I even asked that! Must have been under the influence!


-I was not sure if A/T would have an effect on units with more than 2 movement. If they do not then I have a bit of a problem. I can either make them much tougher in defence which makes them more dangerous to tanks but makes the Infantrys role that much tougher (I intended the infantry to be AT Killers and city assaulters when there was no Mobile arty to hand). The other option is to reduce tank movement to two, something I don't realy want to do. If you have another option please let me know!

-Re: Violating Irish Neutrality and starving your citizens to death. Although I follow the logic I cannot condone such brutal behaviour! Makes sense though! This may have to become a house rule, alternatively I could station neutral units in Ireland (Support NONE) to stop such logical brutality!

-Thanks for your input, I realy made the game for myself and it is a massive bonus that you are enjoying playing it. I really need to keep a note of all the suggestions, V2 should be a blast!

[AGRICOLA]

-Re: Violating Irish Neutrality.............

There is no violation of Irish neutralty.
It is a little known bit of history that, in 1940, Roosevelt had the foresight to arrange an official U.S. lease from Eire of a few square miles around an excellent harbor and permit PanAm to use it as a refuelling base for its Clipper flying boats. A not-so-subtle hint that the $ remitted to the Old Sod by the large Irish community in the U.S. might suddenly dry up, helped to arrange the lease. Subsequently, Dublin has been very careful not to see the base, hear about the base or speak about the base.

Although I follow the logic I cannot condone such brutal behaviour!

"WAR IS HELL"..........Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, ca. 1865

I may even increase their movement to two!

I've been both admiring your fantastic mega map and trying to figure out how much conquest is possible in 200 turns. Winston, the arch imperialist and anti-Communist, wants to know.

In a straight line, it is 100 road squares from Calais to the E edge of the map. That is roughly 35 turns (8+ months) for a Mv=1 engineer. IMO, that is too big a chunk of the scen.

This is why I favor airlifts except for trans-Atlantic ones which were impossible with the transport a/c available in the 40's. To me, airlifts model RR's in scens where RR don't exist and/or can't be built. Airlifts also avoid two problems associated with RR's: infinite carrying capacity per turn and that units can ostensibly board a train, move thousands of miles, and then immediately join the fight.

You may want to keep airlifts but forbid any between two cities which cannot be linked by a RR, no matter how convoluted.

[McMonkey]

Agri

Re: The Emarald Isles
I'm not totaly convinced about the whole Ireland thing but the idea of the scenario IS alternative history and the tactic is sound so I can't realy see a problem there. I may still block it in V2 as I want the battle of the Atlantic to be hard and convoys to be at risk, thats why I made so many U-Boat events!

Re: Allied war crimes.
Q. WAR, HUH, WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?
A. Civ II scenarios perhaps?

Re: Engineers
2-move engineers it is then. Can't have Jo Stalin laughing at the Capitalist invaders as they flounder on the defences of Brest-Litovsk while their horse drawn engineers flounder in mud outside the channel ports!
Have you had any thoughts on making AT guns useful?

Re: Airlifts
I'm not too concerned about airlifts really. They only allow one unit to move per turn and there is always the risk of being shot down. I know airlifting an Armoured unit during WWII is not realistic but I don't think it is too big a problem. Railroads on the other hand would completely ruin the game! Why didn't they make roads move multiplier 3 and railways 6 or 9 or whatever and allow you to change them in the rules file? Would it be possible to add this if that Source code is ever released? Also is there a way to avoid airlifts being intercepted near the front lines?
I suppose I could make a house rule on airlifts in V2 but I am reluctant to do so!

BTW what turn are you up to now?

[AGRICOLA]

Re: Latest on WWII Europa

Here's a brief synopsis of the last few turns.

Turn 8
- Turks sneak attacked near Mosul. This was completely unprovoked as I had no interest in gaining another enemy and another front. Of course, in a burst of unwanted solidarity, the Soviets immediately declared war. The last thing Winston wants is the Reds taking over Turkey.

However, once the attack had occurred, decided to adopt a two-front approach to Germany: through Turkey and the Balkans and across the Channel. There are 7 reasonably productive cities in the Near East, enough to fuel an offensive against Turkey, at best a second rate power.

Turn 9
- Delivered 6 freights to Rotterdam for 1,539 gold = 1 tech's worth of flasks.

Turn 10
- Discovered Allied Tech 2. Can now build Mobile Arty, the attack unit of choice. Let preparations for a ground war begin!
- Studied the tech tree and decided that it is illogical, although understood the thinking behind it. Concluded that it does not permit players to duplicate the explosive growth in U.S. and, to some extent, British production in '42 and '43. In a nutshell, players are asked to play a modern scen without some vital bronze age, medieval and modern city improvements. Changed preqs for Courthouse, Granary, Bank, Supermarket and Stock Exchange to nil and gave Refrigeration to the Allies. A more thorough explanation of my thinking will follow later.

BTW, the changes do NOT negate your desire for active trade (convoys). Under Monarchy, the income of cities that have max productivity improvements as well as max trade routes and tax improvements usually is not sufficient to pay for the maintenance of the improvements. At best, cities are in an approximately break-even situation. Cash needed for rush building units etc. has to come from trade.
- Changed Engineers to Mv = 2.
- Founded Newport News and Brigadoon to complete the chain of convoy ports. Brigadoon is in Northern Ireland.
- The first transatlantic convoy reached Glasgow. Two of the freights are items demanded by Rotterdam and each freight is worth 1016 gold. Delivered 2 freights for 1480 gold, not quite enough to complete the next tech.

Turn 11 [In progress.......]
- After two crazy zigs and a zag, the German Med fleet finally arrived off Alexandria. It promptly lost 4 CA and 10 DD.
- Beirut, Damascus and Mosul are now adequately defended against the Turks.
-7 Mobile Arty are u/c.
-In anticipation of a cross-Channel invasion in summer of '42, recced the German defensive works along the Channel. Discovered a soft spot W of Calais where a fortress is on ground with no defensive bonus. A vet BB should be able to take out the defenders so that the invasion force can come ashore under the protection of a fortress.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Werd100
Also is there a way to avoid airlifts being intercepted near the front lines?

No.

Any ground or air unit (not ship) that has Role=3 (Air Superiority) can intercept airlifts provided that it is anywhere (i.e. any direction) at a distance equal to or less than its Mv from either the departure city or the destination city.

For unit1 and city2, distance is calculated as (|X1-X2|)+(|Y1-Y2|).

From experience, I am pretty sure that if multiple enemy units are within range, each unit gets a chance to intercept, thereby increasing the risk of being shot down.

EDIT: Messed up . . . . . in spades. However, this post is now correct . . . . . I think. Please see subsequent follow-up post for details.

[AGRICOLA]

I have a few questions.

1. Is Allied Tech 4 in the Flight tech slot by accident or on purpose?

2. If on purpose, have you played the scen to a point where the deficit of 200-250 gold per turn actually decreases to something more manageable? Or does it increase as enemy cities are conquered?

3. How did you manage to decrease the deficit without banks and stock exchanges which are unbuildable until late in the scen?


Okay, here's what blew up this time. On Turn 14, the Allies discovered Allied Tech 4 and freight delivery payments immediately dropped to 2/3 of what they had been. A check of Samson's super explanation of delivery bonuses

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64729

indicates that the discovery of Flight reduces bonuses by 1/3. An added feature is that the convoys are actually caravans, not freights, thereby reducing payouts by a further 1/3.

Also, at the same time, the freight-building in the U.S. is pretty well finished: only 1 city can supply a commodity other than food. The supply of high value freights has almost dried up.

What I am really asking is whether building of caravans and moving of convoys decreases or actually increases for the next 185 turns? I'm seriously considering building a few airports so as to skip the convoy bit entirely and play the scen so that U-boats are not factor.

[McMonkey]

Turns

Agri

Some interesting stuff here!

Turn 8 - I had same problem with Turkey when playtesting. Would it be possible to solve this with alteration to attitudes, Turkeys traits or by better fortification of Syrian-Turkish border?
During WWII the Turkish government led by President Ismet Inonu and Prime Minister Sukru Saracoglu, both desciples of Ataturk, played a clever game of diplomacy to stay neutral while preparing for the worst. They managed to get aid from both Germany and Britain in exchange for considering joining the war on either side, but they knew they were not prepared for war and managed to stay neutral throughout. In my scenario I wanted there to be a potential for Turkish participation on either side but I did not want them to rush into war as they do!
Your strategy would have gone down very well with Winnie who, as you may know, was very keen on an invasion of the Balkans, perhaps to redeem himself for the disastorous Gallipoli/Salonika campaigns of the Great War?!? The bonus for Eastern Europe would be liberation rather than Soviet occupation and this in turn could have led to Soviet resentment and the cold war turning hot etc, etc...

Turn 10 - Ok. See how it goes! I always knew the tech tree was basic but thought finishing the scenario to some extent was preferable to never finishing! V2 should resolve this!
Brigadoon seems logical but we have discussed this before and I will leave it there

Turn 11 - A weak spot in the Atlantic wall? Bring me Rommel's head! I know the Germans expected the Allied landings in the Pas de Calais area and this should be the STRONGEST section of the Atlantic wall! I will resolve this. It will be interesting to see how easily you move inland after cracking the crust of the Atlantic wall. Will the Allies get bogged down as they did in Normandy. Maybe an event to create german counterattacking armour if the Allies capture Caen or Calais would be good?

1942 Invasion hm? Will it turn into another Dieppe? Lets hope not!

Intercettion of airlifts - Very interesting. How do you know all this stuff Agri? Sounds like the evidence of many late nights saying "I'll just take this city and then I'm going to bed" and then another and another.....and another

Been there!

At the moment I am putting most of my effort into my new Vietnam scenario. I will probably start a thread about it too. Are you interested in that conflict? It would be nice to get your input on a few of my ideas as they are experimental!

Ta

[McMonkey]

Hmm
A lot of what I have done is trial and error. I tried to make it as playable as I could before releasing it. None of the glitches so far have been so serious as to make the game unplayable but the economy does worry me a bit. If using airlifts and re homing trade units means you can continue the game then thats good but I will need to find ways of fixing it for V2!

1. Accident! I did not realise the effect that using flight has! Is there a good doc that explains all this? Need to know for future projects, including V2!

2.Not sure if it decreases to be totally honest. Just had faith in it to work after turn 50. Maybe thats nieve but there it is!

3. This is all a bit of a pain! Do you think I could solve a lot of this by making Stock Exchanges and Banks available later in the game? The Battle of the Atlantic was virtually won by 1943 (not sure of exact dates) anyway so I suppose the necessity of trade would be less pressing and the financial improvements could become available to ballance ecomomy. This could represent US war economy reaching its peak!?

I will implement some of these fixes and have a playtest when I get time. I can see that all of your input will be descisive in making V2 a vestly more polished effort. Thanks

[AGRICOLA]

I'm bloody embarrassed.

Originally posted by Werd100
Intercettion of airlifts - Very interesting. How do you know all this stuff Agri?

The usual way: by tripping across something puzzling and then trying to sort it out. It's one of the few things that I like as much as playing..

Unfortunately, I don't seem to remember everything that I figured out a few years ago. I seem to have forgotten all about the effect of Role=3, Air Superiority which is the determining factor in whether a unit can shoot down airlifts. The 'can attack aircraft' flag evidently has nothing to do with airlifts.

I did a post a few years ago about how to relatively easily beat Nemo's Red Front 1.4 with some unorthodox strategy and tactics.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103647

The following excerpt from that post discusses who can shoot down airlifts.

II.7 I have encountered unexpected problems airlifting units between cities that definitely had no enemy fighter planes anywhere near them yet a warning about getting shot down by enemy aircraft appeared whenever an airlift was attempted. I am uncertain whether the author intended this because some units that should be able to shoot down airlifts cannot do so while a rather odd assortment of ground units can. The source of the problem was traced to the roles assigned to certain ground units in the RULES files. The following is a partial list of role codes that determine how the AI plays certain units:

0 = Attack
1 = Defend
2 = Naval Superiority
3 = Air Superiority

As can be seen below, all fighter aircraft have a "3" (Air Superiority) in the third last column in the RULES files. Also, all have the special ability to intercept aircraft in flight. Special abilities are defined by the string of 15 0's and 1's at the end of the line for each unit type. Here, a 1 in the 11th position indicates that the unit has the ability to intercept aircraft in flight. There is no problem with this for fighter aircraft. Surprisingly, neither A.A.Batteries, 88 mm AA Batteries nor Sdkfz-4x20mm Flak can attack airlifts, apparently because they do not have a "3" as their role code.

I-16 Polikarpov,       nil, 1, 10.,1,  4a,3d,  2h,2f,  5,0,  3, Env, 000000000010001
Me-109 Fighter,        nil, 1,  7.,2,  9a,4d,  2h,2f,  7,0,  3,  CA, 000000000010001
Fw-190A Fighter,       nil, 1,  7.,2, 10a,5d,  2h,2f,  8,0,  3, Uni, 000000000010001
LA-5 Fighter,          nil, 1,  7.,1,  0a,4d,  2h,2f,  6,0,  3, Mys, 000000000010001
Yak-9 Fighter,         nil, 1,  8.,2, 10a,5d,  2h,2f,  7,0,  3, Sea, 000000000010001
Me-262 Jet Fighter,    nil, 1,  8.,1,  0a,5d,  2h,2f,  9,0,  3, AFl, 010000000010001

Sdkfz-4x20mm Flak,     nil, 0,  5.,0,  0a,9d,  3h,2f,  6,0,  0, Ast, 010000000010000
A.A.Battery,           nil, 0,  1.,0,  0a,5d,  3h,2f,  8,0,  1, Too, 010000000010000
88mm AA Battery,       nil, 0,  1.,0, 10a,7d,  3h,2f,  8,0,  1, Rob, 010010000000000

However, the ground units listed below do have a "3" in the role code column. Some of these units have a "3" in every RULES file they appear in, others have a "0" or a "3" depending on the season and yet others have a "3" only once and a "0" the rest of the time they appear in RULES files. All of these can attack airlifts although none can attack aircraft in flight.

Hummel,               nil, 0,  3.,0, 12a,3d,  3h,2f,  7,0,  3,  X3, 000000001000000
Pz38t Light Tank,     nil, 0,  4.,0,  9a,4d,  3h,2f,  4,0,  3, Alp, 000000000000000
PzKw V "Panther",     nil, 0,  5.,0,12a,10d,  3h,2f,  7,0,  3, CoL, 000000000000000
"Karl" 60cm Mortar,   Pot, 0,  2.,0, 18a,8d,  6h,6f, 10,0,  3,  X3, 000001001000000
Wehrmacht SG,         nil, 0,  1.,0,  6a,4d,  1h,2f,  2,0,  3,  E2, 000000001000000 
NKVD Trooper,         nil, 0,  2.,0,  6a,6d,  2h,2f,  5,0,  3,  no, 000000001000010
Red Guard,            nil, 0,  4.,0,  7a,5d,  2h,2f,  2,0,  3, Cmn, 000011001000000

For some reason the Civ II algorithm appears to use the role code rather than special abilities flags to determine whether a unit can intercept an airlift. As a consequence, a Pz 38 or a Karl in the vicinity of a Soviet city can shoot down an airlift into or out of that city despite having no special ability to attack aircraft in flight. As none of the ground units listed above has a 1 in position 11, I am almost certain that, unless he was trying to stop most airlifts to or from front line cities, the author of the scenario may not have intended that these units should be able to intercept airlifts. I base my conclusion on the both the fact that none of the three types of specialized AA units can shoot down airlifts, whereas the rather motley collection of non-specialized ground units can do so, as well as the fact that there are other inconsistencies in this scenario. For example, Tikhvin is not a port city while Kitela, situated on the same body of water, is a full-fledged port.

If desired, the problem can be fixed by editing the RULES files where needed by changing the 3's to 0's for the ground units in question.

Hope I got it right this time.

[McMonkey]

Good stuff mate
I am keeping it all on file, every little bit of knowledge makes my next project that much more interesting!

[AGRICOLA]

I did not realise the effect that using flight has! Is there a good doc that explains all this? Need to know for future projects, including V2!

Yes, use the link I posted. Samson's post is the bible of freight payoffs.

While on this topic, I had to move Allied Tech from the Invention slot and make sure that the Navigation slot was non-researchable. Acquiring either tech cuts delivery bonuses by ~ 50%.

I'm playing Turn 18.

The U-boat menace has decreased to a minor nuisance, probably because 110+ of the rats have been drowned. I've been keeping track of where recce sights U-boats in the Atlantic and around Britain and have managed to identify 3 spawning locations where the beggars can be sunk before they wander off to do mischief. The Soviets have done their bit by killing some of them.

The Turkish city of Erzurum started the scen as size 4 and, thanks to the idiocy of the AI, has built two engineers, thereby reducing its size to 2 and creating a shortfall of 1 food, even in summer. It is now size 1 and sinking fast. Hopefully the Soviets will bomb the engineers into oblivion; otherwise, the city is a goner.

Building freights, heavy armor and mobile arty is, and will continue to be, the main pastime for a few more months.