The Korean War Development Thread

[Patine]

Bumping this thread for Michael Daumen and anyone else interested. The KW scen is a few posts above this one. Be warned, it's still a work in progress; as Curt says just above, it 'needs a bit of polish.' Try it though, and let me know what you think.

[Michael Daumen]

Did I overlook units & terrain files somewhere?

[Patine]

I believe I put them in the third zip file (not including sounds).

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I think I might give this a look, as I'm likely to get ToT for my B-day.

Anyway, how are you handling the Korean Army? Civ 2 battles are basically struggles of annihiliation (one unit must be killed; there isn't a chance for a unit in battle to be defeated in battle and run away, like in Civ 3), and from what I know of the Korean War, the ROK army was defeated but survived to fight another day, from which Van Fleet, if memory serves, helped modernize (an advance + Leo's Workshop in a Japanese city might work for this.) Than again, I'm no expert about the ROK army, so...

Anyway, I'll download the new files when I get the chance and, if I get ToT (yes, I tried to download the demo... no, it didn't work ), I'll tell you what I think.

And there is no reason the Turkish infantry shouldn't have bayonets.

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I'm able to play ToT now, so I took the scenario and played it.

The initial blitzkireg was shocking, and I think in the first turn Pusan may have been threatened. The perimeter definitively was. I remember deciding that it would be best if I delpoy my troops to the mountains outside of a city (there was a city between it and Pusan, and mountains were directly north of it - I forgot the name), as they have better defense values, only to watch the NK forces bypass the city and take the southern one.

Naval support consisted of basically a few aircraft carriers and some transport ships. While this does seem a bit ahistorical (there were warships in the fleet), I can understand, given the criticisms of "the early UN forces are too powerful" of the earlier versions, why they're not there.

Ironically, I had some units on a ship en route to Inchon when even spawned the USMC landings at said port. So, with my "little Inchon" fleet nowhere near Inchon yet, I landed them at a friendly port and advanced from there. The forces spawned at Inchon seemed lower than the historical number (the historical forces had Pershings with them, for example), but it did provide some drama (will the Marines be able to hold Seoul and Inchon long enough to connect with the Pusan Perimeter forces, or will the NK dislodge them from their hard-fought posts? Find out next turn!)

As it was historically, Inchon proved a turning point in the war, as I was able to advance quite rapidly after the forces linked up (though not as rapidly as the historical forces.)

So, as of April 1951 all but one Korean city is in UN hands, and according to the text files, the Chinese are supposed to intervene. I find that dismaying, as I have scrupulously tried to avoid Chinese border posts whenever I can (I can vividly recall turning an M48 Patton around from taking a city when I saw Chinese border posts along the way. Not sure if I'll play from there, as I like having Korea all but unified under Southern control, but then I think I might try and invade China should they try anything. I dunno.

[Patine]

Yes, the initial attacks by the NK are meant to be a real storm! And the Inch'on landing may be just a bit underpowered, I don't know. As for Chinese involvement, it's triggered EITHER by crossing the border or capturing too many NK cities. Invading China should be a real treat if you try it! Any suggestions on what I should change or further feedback would be appreciated.

[McMonkey]

My two penny worth

I have not had time to play this properly yet but to be fair I havn't played any other ToT scenarios from the big list of ones I have yet to play!

My initial impressions:
The NK invasion was terrifying. I like being terrified! I actually thought Pusan would fall on turn 1! I have been reading about the NK army recently and did not realise half of them were seasoned veterans of the Chinese Civil War! Also their Soviet style use of armoured blitzkrieg tactics comes across well. The cities look good and the terrain looks bleak.

One critisism would be that the map is a bit small, Korea itself anyway, and the mix of terrain seems to be pretty much mountain in the middle and flat ground sloping down to the coast with roads clear of obstruction.

What I would suggest is mixing up the terrain more, adding more hills and making the roads easier to block. Korea was an infantry / artillery war afterall!

I think you could resolve the map thing quite quickly and easily with the cheat menu!

I will play the game properly when I get enough free time.

[McMonkey]

Patine
Have you ever seen a Korean film called Taegukgi (Brotherhood) by Kang Je-Gyu about the Korean war?

If not I would HIGHLY recomend getting hold of a copy. It is a real epic s*$t kicker and would probably inspire you to finish this game.

The ROK attack on Pyongyang and the Chinese intervention are amazing and it is a good story too!

[McMonkey]

Thought I would bump this old thread to add feedback about The Korean War!

You have done a very good job with the North Korean attack. The second time I started the scenario (+sounds) the NK army was in the suburbs of Pusan on their first turn!

I am not sure how I will beat them back yet but I am working on a strategy.

I have a few comments:

-I really hate the broken and rocky terrains. Looks a bit too Mordor! I have added some replacement terrains in my scenario folder. They are not ideal but look less ugly!

-The artillery graphics (82mm Mortar/76mm/105mm and 122mm) need sorting. Fairline has made a good mortar graphic that could easily be converted. I have never seen a GB US 105mm to match the 25pdr. The rest of the units look great!

-The South Korean infantry are useless in attck. I think they should at least be able to hurt NK infantry or would this upset the game balance?

-On my first go I wasted a lot of US carrier aircraft attacking the NK army. Are they only intended to attack NK aircraft?
The British carrier planes were more potent.

-Although the various UN nations may not have sent that many troops to Korea I think including the minor infantry contingents adds to the colour of the game!

-I would like to see a tiny bit more veriety in the terrain in the extreme south of Korea. A few more hills and trees would make things more interesting. Historically the UN defences were in the hills around Pusan rather than out on the plains.

-I tried to pillage the roads leading to Pusan but it destroyed the stackable terrain first. Is there a way of chosing which improvement to destroy first? I know you can in MGE scenarios.

Thats all I can think of for now. I will add more when I have got a bit further on in the test

Attached is a squished MGE version of Fairlines 81/2mm mortar:

[McMonkey]

Have played the game several times at Emperor level and got wiped out very quickly! Bear it in mind that I am not the best player in the world but I cannot hold onto Pusan and the Inchon landing forces get wiped out before I even get to control them. The only useful units are the carrier planes and most of them get wiped out when some Yaks show up!

I will try again at King Level and see if I can hold Pusan long enough for the UN to arrive!

I think it has a lot of potential. The North Korean assault reminds me of Red Front and Frederick the Great, which can't be bad!

[McMonkey]

Cool! Things work much better at King Level. At least Pusan holds out until the UN reinforcements arrive. Also, before I was forgetting to re-home the units that fell back to Pusan...doh!

Inchon also works at King level!

The read me needs to explain which types of unit are good for certain jobs (IE Attack, Defence etc...). I know you can check the stats in the pedia, but a brief guide would make the units instantly understandable.

One important idea I think you should implement. The South Koreans you begin with should be re-named 'Constabulary'. I would then recommend adding a ROK Army unit to represent the re-organized, re-trained and re-equipped South Korean army. This unit should have similar stats to the UN infantry. You could use the space occupied by the Filipino (or whichever)UN troops.

I would create the three landing craft just off shore so that the Pusan units box does not get so full up.

Also, when the UN reinforcements appear the NK kill the Sabre before it can be used by the player. How about creating the aircraft somewhere offshore?

Some of the UN units stats seem a little weak too!

What is the purpose of the twin Mustang? Just recon?

I like this game a lot

What is it that you think needs doing to finish it?

[Patine]

Well, my reply is:

First of all, thanks for testing it, McMonkey, I appreciate it!

As for the ugly broken and rocky terrain, I pretty much agree. I was strapped for choice at the time. I would like better if someone's up to making it.

The US carrier aircaft are ideal against aircraft, but I used them successfully against NK land units in the open, I believe.

South Korean infantry weren't meant to be a contending unit, as they're the only military unit you can freely build. However, your later suggestion of 'constabulary' and 'ROK Army' may be worth pursuing.

The artillery could definitely use updated graphics.

Putting the Pusan landing craft and certain aircraft (like the Sabre) offshore may be a good idea.

Yes, the Twin Mustang is just for recon. That's how it was used historically.

As for UN stats and roles, I could probably sharpen those as well.

Thanks, again, for the initial playtest!

[McMonkey]

No probs. I am looking forward to having another (proper) go tommorow evening!

[tanelorn]

Historically, the first three North Korean airplanes destroyed by US forces were shot down by F-82s.The USAF officially credits the F-82 with 2 La-7 kills and one Yak-11 kill in that case. However, one of the planes downed over Kimpo by an F-82 was a Yak-9P, some say. Not that it makes that much of a difference.

[McMonkey]

Notes so far from playtest:

-Inchon invasion a bit too weak. One US Marine survived the landing but was badly damaged. Was killed when I tried to attack a US Marine that had been bribed by the North.

-If I was you I would ct out the bribery aspect altogether!

-I managed to stop all NK attacks on Pusan by creating a ring of bombers around the city. Is this what you intended? If not I would limit the range of almost all the aircraft to normal fighter range (1?)

Will post more in a bit. I typed all his before and then accidentally closed page so I may post several times to avoid doing this again!