The Korean War Development Thread

[Sarsstock]

Its nothing I'm sure a little tweaking, editing and manipulating won't fix. Can't wait to see the next version when you get your PC up and running again Patrick!

[tanelorn]

Despite those balancing issues, I have to give it to you man. I really like the mechanics of the game.

[techumseh]

Having played the scenario, I'm curious as to what happened when you played it yourself, Patine. Did you have this version playtested?

[fairline]

Patine, here are the aircraft I promised, plus a few other bits and bobs like a MiG-15 and A-26. The remaining aircraft had got messed up when you made the units file or else I've tweaked them a bit. If you want help putting Sarsstock's rather fine shields on them, let me know. Use the bmp in the zip rather than the png preview BTW.

As for the infantry, I've made up a set of accurately summer-uniformed Korean War chappies; the winter equivalents for each nation were quite different. A note on these: the US and S. Korean grunts wear the ubiquitous green M43 / M51 combat dress which was virtually universal amongst UN forces with the exception of the Commonwealth troops. The latter often scrounged items of US M43, or in the Brit's case copied it, and I've reflected that in the icons.

Enough geeky uniform musings, and onto your scenario. First off I like the map, although I would have preferred a larger one focusing on Korea itself. Everybody else has mentioned this, but the opening salvos of the scenario are ruined by the Red's lack of progress through the peninsula. You really need to take a close look at Nemo's Red Front and see how he expertly engineered a blitzkreig through Russia in the early turns of the scenario. Judiscious unit generation and gridded 'move-to' commands do the trick. Next, make the initial S. Korean units weak and deprive them of arty; they need to collapse completely. Perhaps have a stronger S Korean garrison unit later in the game, triggered by an event concerning US training and equiping.

I have to ask why you have so many UN infantry types at the expense of perhaps more varied and useful Korean / Chinese units? Many of the nations you have included didn't even have infantry in Korea, like the Indians (a single field ambulance unit) and the N. Zealanders (a field arty btty). Artillery have way too many move points and are overly-effective. Also, forget the naval units - this was a land war and the only part the UN navies really played was through amphibious landings and aircraft carriers.

Hope you don't take these (constructive) criticisms the wrong way - they're just my 2p's-worth.

[fairline]

The bmp for the above units:

[curtsibling]

Completely superb, mate...!

Patine, your scenario should now resound with awesome visuals...!

We should now work to make the game mechanics rock also!

This has the hints of a ToT classic!

[techumseh]

Glad to see a first rate MiG-15, Gareth. I can't imagine a Korean War scenario without one!

While I echo some of the other comments about the NK offensive, this has the makings of a very good scenario. Patine shows some real growth as a scenario designer with this one.

In particular, the Soviet and Chinese border flag units as triggers for intervention as part of a bigger strategic situation, place the Korean War in it's historical context. I also like the way the nuclear option is handled.

That said, there simply has to be more work done on the events dealing with the various communist offensives, otherwise the thing just doesn't work! There are detailed events and lots of reinforcements for the UN forces, but very little for the Communists.

According to the readme, the UN is intended to be played by the human player. The rule of thumb is that the AI should outnumber the human player by 3-1 and have slightly better units in order to have a balanced scenario. The opposite is true here, so the result is very predictable.

This goes for the all Communist offensives, not just the opening NKPA attack. The Chinese and Soviet interventions, as well as the popular uprising in the south, all fizzle out with no appreciable impact on the game.

I'm happy to help with the events to fix all of this, if you desire. I note that you have only used half the available ToT events space, so there's lots more fun to be had.

[fairline]

Originally posted by techumseh
While I echo some of the other comments about the NK offensive, this has the makings of a very good scenario. Patine shows some real growth as a scenario designer with this one.

I forgot to mention it was fun to play. Sorry about that Patine! My concern was the fact that N Korea doesn't get close to closing on the Pusan pocket by the time I get my huge number of US reinforcements across from Japan, at whhich point the Reds are history.

In particular, the Soviet and Chinese border flag units as triggers for intervention as part of a bigger strategic situation, place the Korean War in it's historical context. I also like the way the nuclear option is handled.

That said, there simply has to be more work done on the events dealing with the various communist offensives, otherwise the thing just doesn't work! There are detailed events and lots of reinforcements for the UN forces, but very little for the Communists.

According to the readme, the UN is intended to be played by the human player. The rule of thumb is that the AI should outnumber the human player by 3-1 and have slightly better units in order to have a balanced scenario. The opposite is true here, so the result is very predictable.

This goes for the all Communist offensives, not just the opening NKPA attack. The Chinese and Soviet interventions, as well as the popular uprising in the south, all fizzle out with no appreciable impact on the game.

I think given the scale of the map, Patine should go for Regiment / brigade scale UN forces rather than battalion-scale UN forces. Leaving the N Koreans and Chinese at battalion-scale would give them some teeth and rebalance things a little.

[techumseh]

I agree that there are too many types of UN infantry- Peru, Chile, Brazil, etc. Perhaps they could be consolidated to free up some slots for other things.

One area where a few more unit types would help is in the artillery. Some 76mm and 122mm Soviet types, for the Communist forces, perhaps some 82mm mortars as well. Keep the 25 pounder for the Brits & commonwealth, and add the US 105mm. Perhaps you can do something with this effort of mine from a few years ago.

(edit) also the US 155mm "Long Tom" should be included.

[techumseh]

Oops.

[typhoon]

Originally posted by fairline
I think given the scale of the map, Patine should go for Regiment / brigade scale UN forces rather than battalion-scale UN forces. Leaving the N Koreans and Chinese at battalion-scale would give them some teeth and rebalance things a little.

To add to what Gareth said and at the risk of stating the obvious, this would reduce the types of UN forces to US, ROK, British, Canadian, Australian, Turkish, and perhaps Thai and Fillipino units. The other nations which contributed a battalion or less can be consolidated into a single generic UN infantry unit.

I'd also suggest replacing the South African F-51 unit- the one squadron they contributed can be expressed adequately with the existing F-51. (Since the squadron also upgraded to Sabres by the end of the war, the F-86 can also be used in the same capacity.)

In its place, you could add a South Korean T-6 Texan trainer, which they used throughout the entire conflict, or a South Korean F-51, (which was the ROKAF's numerically most important type by the end of the war.)

[Patine]

Sorry for not replying sooner, but this will be one of the last replies I make for another week, unless I get to another Internet capable computer (something was at fault in my beast's repair and it needs to go back soon). But anyways, top of the line units there! I do also agree with the advice given. Currently, I'm working on generating NK infantry in each SK city they initially capture, as well as having seperate offensive and defensive NK infantry, though I haven't yet playtested this idea (both were suggested by Steph). I also plan to beef up the Chinese and Soviet interventionary forces, and, once they're triggered, allow them to build they're offensive volunteers. Techumseh, any help with triggers would be appreciated; I just have to formulate the right questions.

[techumseh]

Good stuff! Here are my suggestions for events:

As you've indicated, spawning units in captured SK cities (JUSTONCE) is key, as is moveunit events, leading ultimately to Pusan. See Nemo's tip on the 'MOVEUNIT' event on the Cradle of Civ site.

This should be repeated during the Chinese offensive, although they didn't attempt to go all the way to Pusan.

I suggest triggering CC intervention if selected NK cities are captured. As it now stands, the UN player can systematically eliminate the NK civ while carefully not triggering Chinese or Soviet intervention. Historically, the Chinese attacked before NK was completely overrun. This will involve setting up flags and a mask, something I'm happy help with if you need it.

MiG 15's should be introduced as part of the Chinese intervention, and based in Chinese cities. Ditto for the Soviet intervention. Along with other CC intervention units, I suggest having ongoing reinforcement events, rather than just a one shot event. Keep the UN player's hands full at all times.

I'm not sure what the Soviet MiGs are doing on NK airfields at the start of the scenario, but I'd suggest getting rid of them.

The Communist insurrection in the south should be stronger and last more than one turn as well.

You might want to restrict the 'veteran' status to elite units, ie: marines, paras and maybe the initial NK infantry. A few MiG 15s could be generated as veterans to simulate the 'Honchos', the Soviet pilots who flew with the Chinese airforce.

That's my 2 cents worth for now.

Oh yeah. Why not make the B-36 the UN's nuclear bomber and save a unit slot? It was used exclusively in this role, AFAIK.

[Patine]

Thanks for the advice, Techumseh. I will work on it. Just so everyone knows, there'll be no posts or work on the KW (or any other) scen by me for about a week after tonight. So don't get worried if I don't update or respond regularly. If I get to another computer, I may be able to post. Otherwise, I'll see you all next week.

[Patine]

Time to get back to work. First off, I'm still awaiting Tech's altered events.txt he PMed me he'd send for my consideration, but he did say he would wait till WoC was released. In the meantime, does anyone know where I could find the five artillery pieces mentioned in the below quote, also by Tech, as well as the T-6 Texan mentioned by Typhoon?

One area where a few more unit types would help is in the artillery. Some 76mm and 122mm Soviet types, for the Communist forces, perhaps some 82mm mortars as well. Keep the 25 pounder for the Brits & commonwealth, and add the US 105mm. Perhaps you can do something with this effort of mine from a few years ago.