Spies as artillery

[Eivind IV]

I've come up with a potential good idea on how to use the spy, although there are problems related to it as well.

In civ3 artillery has the bombard feature, which is brilliant, compared to the civ2 way of using artillery. Now, how about this:

Original setting from game.txt

@SPYOPTIONS
(1)Establish Embassy
(2)Investigate City
(3)Steal Technology
(4)Industrial Sabotage
(5)Poison Water Supply
(6)Plant Nuclear Device
(7)Incite a Revolt

@SABOTAGEOPTIONS
@width=320
@title=Spy Options
@options
(1)Bribe Unit.
(2)Sabotage Unit.

New artillery spy options:

@SPYOPTIONS
(1)
(2)
(3)
(4)Asign strategic target within city
(5)Target civilians
(6)
(7)

@SABOTAGEOPTIONS
@width=320
@title=Spy Options
(1)
(2)Bombard Unit.

Now, the only problem with this is that the unit escapes and returns home after finished mission. But if it is possible to somehow remove this ability, so that the spy may stay in the battlefield, we got ourselves an pretty original artillery unit!

Is this possible, or must I talk with Skyer?

[Tigey]

Great Idea! I remember reading in the ToT guide ( ) that "Sabotage Unit" ALWAYS does at least some damage to the target unit, regardless of whether the Spy is lost.

It would probably have to be a human player only unit, as I think that the AI can use all unit options, regardless of whether or not they appear in the pop-up box. And it would only be possible to create one unit of this type, due to limitations within Civ2 (ie: only a unit in the spy slot would have spy abilities, etc)


Great to see there's still a lot of original thinking going on, some 8 or 9 years after Civ2 first came out

[curtsibling]

The artillery/spy being taken home could be represented by a message like:

'The unit has moved to @CITY for re-armament.'

And the artillery/spy being lost could be represented by a message like:

'The unit has been destroyed by counter barrage fire!'

[Eivind IV]

Yes, I think you're right that the AI can't comprehend this. They'll probably bribe units etc. But this could however be regarded as a "force into submission", and there could be a house rule on moving these units back to nearest city as POWs.

Btw, the spy ability contra that of the diplomat only makes for the nuclear feature (and that only if the Manhattan project is built) out of the abilities I'd wish for the arillery unit, so you could have as many diplo-arties as you'd wish. Also the diplo gets lost more often, but that is what I want to change as well. And last but not least, the spy can pin point target in industrial sabotage. A spy unit can only be a realisitc arillery unit however if somone can figure out how to remove the captured and escape feature.

I read on this page, quite through guide of diplomats and spies at SlowThinker's page (http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/dipspy.htm), that the sabotage feature will damage half a units' strength, regardless unit.

[Eivind IV]

@Curt:
Only just read your reply. That actually makes some sense, but the most desireable would of course to let it live and stay and let it rearm on the battlefield.

Finally artilleries can have movement 2 without beeing to a lopsided unit anyway.

[Boco]

You probably have already given this some thought, but you'll need to edit @SPYMENU and @SABOTAGEOPTIONS, e.g.

[Edit]@SABOTAGEOPTIONS[/Edit]
@width=440
@x=5
@y=-5
@title=Bedouin Ghazzu (Raid) Options
@options
Bribe
Ambush (NOT vs. Terrain, Boundary, Minefield, or U-Boat)

[Edit]In ToT, you can delete "Bribe", and edit @UNIT_ADVANCED to disable bribing of every potential target.[/Edit]

Memory's dim, but you may not have the ability to disable the first option of @SPYOPTIONS and/or @SABOTAGEOPTIONS. I'll check later. One option is to have embassies with every potential artillery target.

[Boco]

Muddy details (with ToT fixes)

The first line of @SABOTAGEOPTIONS (i.e. bribing units) can't be removed without disabling access to the second line — you just get an optionless dialog with OK and Cancel buttons. So you'll need to disable bribing for all units via section G of @UNITS_ADVANCED. The first option will still appear, but IIRC selecting it has no effect. In this case, the bribe line @SABOTAGEOPTIONS can then be edited to something inocuous for the scenario.

The first line of @SPYOPTIONS (i.e. establishing embassies) can't be removed either. For spies, the engine concatenates the first option from Game.txt with a line from Labels.txt. If both are left blank, you'll see a line of nonsense "(< nil >)". Only workaround I know is to establish embassies. Btw, the concatenation occurs on any option in the dialog for which spies have a unique advantage.

The default selection of @SPYOPTIONS can be changed from the unwanted first option. Just insert "@default=1" after @options. Haven't tested this with the @SPYMENU/@SABOTAGEOPTIONS combo dialog. I believe it's an unusual hybrid dialog, which doesn't have an @options line.

[Edit]Inserting @default=1 (or 2) has no benefit in either @SPYMENU or @SABOTAGEOPTIONS. Schade.[/Edit]

[Eivind IV]

Originally posted by Boco


You probably have already given this some thought, but you'll need to edit @SPYMENU and @SABOTAGEOPTIONS, e.g.

[Edit]@SABOTAGEOPTIONS[/Edit]
@width=440
@x=5
@y=-5
@title=Bedouin Ghazzu (Raid) Options
@options
Bribe
Ambush (NOT vs. Terrain, Boundary, Minefield, or U-Boat)

[Edit]In ToT, you can delete "Bribe", and edit @UNIT_ADVANCED to disable bribing of every potential target.[/Edit]

Memory's dim, but you may not have the ability to disable the first option of @SPYOPTIONS and/or @SABOTAGEOPTIONS. I'll check later. One option is to have embassies with every potential artillery target.

Yep (although I did already post the @SABOTAGEOPTIONS in post 1).

You must also edit: @BLEWITUP, @BOND007, @BOND, @BONDGLORY, @NAILED and @SABOTAGESPECIFIC (only if spy abilities). All the INCIDENT denominators must also be edited. And probably the rest of the diplo/spy options in case the AI decides to bypass the written rules, which it often does.

[Eivind IV]

Re: Muddy details (with ToT fixes)

Originally posted by Boco
The first line of @SABOTAGEOPTIONS (i.e. bribing units) can't be removed without disabling access to the second line — you just get an optionless dialog with OK and Cancel buttons. So you'll need to disable bribing for all units via section G of @UNITS_ADVANCED. The first option will still appear, but IIRC selecting it has no effect. In this case, the bribe line @SABOTAGEOPTIONS can then be edited to something inocuous for the scenario.

That blows. So, without some Skyer magic, stuff like that would have to be prohibited by house rules only.

Also house rules could restrict the artillery units from beeing used as a regular diplomat/spy, by only alowing it to gather intelligence before an actual artillery barrage. Or to disalow it completely.

[Ecthy]

I've read on some other thread the suggestion to edit the code in a way that flying units can be spies (Skyer etc.) so you can do the same thing you are suggesting with bomber planes. Maybe it even was your idea.

Anyway, cool thing.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

In ToT, why not just set the "unbribeable" flag on for all units? Or am I missing something?

[techumseh]

No, you're not.

[Skyer]

Here is the variant, where spies bombard units directly, without any menus, don't return to cities and never get captured.

http://www.geocities.com/slava_sky1/civ2.zip

[Skyer]

And here is the same variant, but when it arrives the city, it activates sabotage menu.

http://www.geocities.com/slava_sky1/a/civ2.zip

[Boco]

Originally posted by Boco
[Edit]In ToT, you can delete "Bribe", and edit @UNIT_ADVANCED to disable bribing of every potential target.[/Edit]

STYO, you might have missed my edits, which may not have shown in your cached version of the thread, but you're dead on. However, Eivind's screen shots appear to come from MGE or earlier. AFAIK, he'll just have to console himself with Skyer's new hack.

Skyer! Many, many thanks!