P vs ST (not for ST)

[Peaster]

The Zulu's vs the Americans

The Zulu Perspective: We ARE the ZULU!!! We're gonna rumble in the jungle! We're gonna dance like butterflies and sting like bees! Peaster is the CHAMP. He's the CHAMP. He's the WORLD CHAMP!

We're gonna take this Slow Thinking American fellow and stomp all over him!

Peaster replies: Well, actually, I don't dance, and I have never played a Fast PBEM before. I have played about 10 turns of the SoG PBEM, but have not seen any real combat yet. So, it will probably be a real challenge to stay in the game with SlowThinker.

[Peaster]

Pre-Game Thoughts:

1) I surfed the net for MP strategies and duel strategies. CFC has a short write-up on duels, stressing expansion and monarchy. Apolyton (Civ III) has a nice article explaining the 4 main MP strategies [Dagger, Sledgehammer, Choker, Castle], and I expect it applies to Civ II, too.

2) This is a scenario, with direct tech choices. So, I will probably skip HBR and go straight for monarchy. I may be vulnerable for a long time, but there are no barbs, and ST has to find me very quickly to take advantage. Also, I'll try to get some units from huts.

3) ST wanted each civ to have two separate starting positions. From just a little play-testing of a similar game, I found that the position without the capitol is plagued by corruption and waste. Each such city is worth less than 70 per cent of normal, at least until monarchy. So, I intend to spend almost all my early resources on growth in the capitol area, and use the other zone mainly as an explorer base.

4) I decided to use the size 1 city trick. We started with 100g so I could rush-buy a settler on the 2nd turn. I had to disband my NON-warrior (which cuts into exploring), but I think the early start is worth it.

I got one start in a river area near silk and another up north with wheat (though I soon found a whale, too). I decided to build the capitol in the river area, and RB there, because of its trade arrows.

5) I am not sure about the urgency to explore in this game. We can't use huts within 8 squares of either start, and there is no AI to contact. I will probably have to delay exploration a little because of idea 4), but will try to catch up quickly.

OK - If anybody is interested in this game, please let me know and I can post screenshots and/or a log.

BTW - I am assuming you've looked at the 2 related threads in this forum already... You can offer ideas, criticisms and condolences, but please don't say anything about ST's position or strategy.

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Peaster
Pre-Game Thoughts:

1) I surfed the net for MP strategies and duel strategies. CFC has a short write-up on duels, stressing expansion and monarchy. Apolyton (Civ III) has a nice article explaining the 4 main MP strategies [Dagger, Sledgehammer, Choker, Castle], and I expect it applies to Civ II, too.

Wasn't there some guy who wrote an early conquest guide for Civ 2 (albeit for SP)?

Originally posted by Peaster

OK - If anybody is interested in this game, please let me know and I can post screenshots and/or a log.

I will follow both yours and ST's reporting. A screenshot every now and then to illustrate your progress would be great. If you have the time and energy, a short log would also be nice!

Carolus

[Peaster]

Originally posted by Carolus Rex

Wasn't there some guy who wrote an early conquest guide for Civ 2 (albeit for SP)?

Carolus

I think most of that will not work very well against a human opponent. And ST probably understands those principles as well as I do, anyway. He has a big edge in experience and knowledge of Civ2 mechanics. But I think he has not played a lot of humans either, so there is the possibility of errors of judgement on both sides.

[Peaster]

The screen shot above shows my capitol at the end of 1AD. The warrior returns in 2AD to disband. I ike the river valley for the arrows, food and shields. I will not actually use the silk special until the cities reach size 2. I'd prefer not to build my capitol on the coast, for defensive reasons, but I didn't want to delay for that.

The shot below shows my other starting position [both units started on the hill] after 1AD. It seemed a less desirable spot for the capitol. I soon found whale and fish nearby, so it might really have been a better site. I am using ST's version of Hut Finder, but black-clicking is not allowed, so I didn't know this site was surrounded by water.

[Peaster]

Play began on Sunday May 8. I was wearing my CBGB T shirt. ST graciously allowed me the choice of civ, and I chose the Zulus (green), thinking they might get better terrain than the Americans (cyan). There were a few glitches getting started, so we only played a few turns that day. I am writing this on May 12, after playing the 16th turn. We agreed to keep playing logs, so I may as well do it here (more to come soon) -

1: Zimbabwe (1) on the river.

2: Rush first row for 16g. Disband the NON-warrior in Zim. Rush a Settler for 81g. I can now guess there's a whale up north.

I will research Alphabet and probably head straight for monarchy. I usually set the slider for science, but this time I decided to go more for taxes in the very early game to promote growth. This may actually be an idea of ST from some half-forgotten thread.

3: Ulundi (2) near the whale. But it is so far from the cap, it only gets 2/3 shields and 1/3 arrows.

4: Bapedi (3) founded 3 river squares from Zim, so it can share the silk special, etc. The top 5 city screen is now 3/4 green, but ST will fix that soon.

5: Finished row 1 towards a settler in Zim for 8g (I am throwing money at the capitol zone). Bapedi will make 1 or 2 warriors for militia/exploration.

[Peaster]

6: The Top 5 list now shows 5 unoccupied size 1 cities - ST has just built Cheb. I guess this is his distant city. Or, maybe he is moving the distant settler closer to his capitol to reduce corruption. It doesn't seem like a good idea, but ...?

7: Alpha -> Code of Laws. I raised the science bar more often now, unless I really needed some quick gold.

The Demo screen has changed a lot. I guess ST has built his 3rd city, but it doesn't appear on the top 5 list. This is confusing and I am not sure.

8: Made a warrior in Ulundi, the distant city. Now, I should have switched to barracks. After Code of Laws (approx 12ad) it can switch to courthouse [which costs only 10s in this game] and saves 2 arrows per turn. But I still didn't realize how bad corruption/waste would be at size 2 [also, I may have just forgotten about this idea].

9: Apparently ST has a food surplus of 7/t and Mfg of 7s/t !? He is ahead on most key Demo stats. He must have found some good specials. I will make my fourth city first, though.

10: I wanted to send my Ulundi warrior out to explore, and keep my NON as a militia, but the unexpected shape of the land forced me to reverse their roles (or lose 4-5 turns).

Bapedi is using the silk tile to speed up a warrior, to allow the current one to continue its exploring (rather than return to Zim). I will use an Elvis in Zim for one turn, to make this work. I figure that getting the Zim settler out a turn early is worth about 15g, so I am raising 37 gold for a rush buy.

I think ST has one tech now, since I am second at Ann.Inc. Also, his GNP seems to be 4... pretty high.

The distant city after 10 turns. The NON heads south.

[Peaster]

The capitol area after 10 turns. The warrior goes east for huts. I will build Hlobane near the gold special.

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Peaster

10: I wanted to send my Ulundi warrior out to explore, and keep my NON as a militia, but the unexpected shape of the land forced me to reverse their roles (or lose 4-5 turns).

Yes, ideally I prefer the same order of roles. Exploring with the supported unit because it enables me to check in the city window if it's closer to enemy cities than to my own (but maybe that's not allowed here?), and if it stumbles upon an enemy unit that kills it the (potential) support shield is also eliminated.

Thanks for the screenshots. This promises to be an interesting game!

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Peaster

I will not actually use the silk special until the cities reach size 2.

A la DaveV's "food over trade until size 2" - strategy?

Carolus

[Peaster]

Yes, I want food in this case. I learned a lot from DaveV, but I feel we have gone beyond that in our "Theory Contest" (it's a current thread in the General Forum). That discussion is probably too involved to ever catch on, but you might find it interesting if you are a growth fanatic like I am.

Your reasoning about the NON is the same as mine. We are allowed to use the "nearest city" function here, and I am really wishing my NON were not the NON right now. I suspect it is quite close to ST's capitol by now.

[Peaster]

11: I see a hut...

12: C.L -> C.B, which will cost 24b.

I popped a hut at 46,16 too near Ulundi and disbanded the settler (our rules). This is better than leaving the hut for ST, of course. There should be more huts to the south.

Zim grows, and hires an Elvis for one turn.

13: Ulundi becomes size 2, with a whale, fish and forest nearby, but it is almost worthless because of the waste + corr.

I finally decide that rushing a settler from Zim costs too much, so I'll just let the forests do their thing.

14: Hut = Archer, support from Bapedi. It goes north for more huts and "nearest city" info. Bingo! The nearest city to (20,16) is Cheb. I'm guessing it's near (11,9). Now, the Archer will try to harass ST there.

15: I expect monarchy (tech) about 22AD, and then 24AD is the next oedo year. From testing and reading, I am also expecting contact/war to start around 24AD. I will need HBR very soon thereafter, or more units from huts.

16: I am one turn from CB, and must decide whether to pop a hut. I read there is only a 20 per cent chance of a tech, which seems pretty small, so I go ahead. Unnngh! Bronze Working. The cost of CB goes up 12b's and my plans for quick monarchy [and HBR] are hurting.

Zim makes a settler and has support problems for a few turns.

17: I am not sure if my 4th city needs a warrior escort. The exposed river system makes me nervous, so I decide to rush a warrior from Zim, for 19g.

It replaces the warrior in Bapedi, which follows the new Settler. If ST can get a horse on my river, I am in trouble. But maybe the spare warrior can somehow get in the way.

I can't make much sense of the Demo screen. I figure ST has a GNP of 10. Mine is only 5, even with taxes at 60. Is he using luxuries or is this some trick of the AI?

AFAIK, the game is fairly equal. I am probably making cities a little faster, but ST's must be in better locations. I am guessing he has had a little more success with huts, gaining maybe 1-2 units and some gold. My gold stays near 0.

18: Hlobane (4) workers on gold, trying for monarchy asap. I'm getting 9b/t, but probably won't finish CB + monarchy by 24AD.

I have 3/5 top cities before my turn but 2/5 after it - How's that?

19: ST has made a settler in Kl, and my Demos look OK again. Finally, I am number one in Land. My Archer is about 3-4 squares from Cheb (probably) and my NE warrior sees a hut.

20: CB -> Mo'y, which will cost 45b. I have 5b in the box, left over from CB. So, I need 10b per turn for 4 turns. The only way to get an extra beaker is by moving both of Bapedi's workers to ocean. But then, instead of getting a settler next turn, it will take 4 turns. I am not sure 4 extra turns of monarchy is worth it.

Hut = nomad!! It is far from the capitol, but there is a gold special nearby, and it gets a 20AD move, which reveals a plains tile suitable for building in 22AD. Even with gold (normally +6 arrows) it will probably only produce +1b/t. But I need 1-2 beakers desperately, and may be able to rush a courthouse in 23AD, to get another +1 beaker before 24AD. At least, I hope it works that way.

My Archer is now within 3 squares of where I imagine Cheb to be. ST emails me that he has found the Archer and wants to sleep before moving [it is about 1AM in Praha]. Of course, I have no idea what kind of defenses he may have ready. But my cities have almost none, so I'm guessing this Archer is a big problem for him.

The Archer moves in from the south. I expect that Cheb is near the northwest corner of this screenshot from 20AD.

[Peaster]

Good fortune in the other hemisphere - the NON warrior just popped a hut, coming from the west. The new nomad moved north into blackness, hoping to find a decent city site near the gold (and probably a fish special). If the plains tile had been almost anything else, then monarchy must wait 4 more turns. This area may be near ST's capitol, but I will risk that.

[Peaster]

21: An American warrior appears just north of my Archer on a mountain - ST moved it there by sheer luck, I suppose. I am not too sure of Civ2's visibility rules (this is not much of an issue in SP). Over the next 2-3 turns, my poor knowledge of other Civ2 mechanics hurts me a bit.

North is the direction I wanted to go, to preserve the option of attacking Cheb or heading east for huts. I choose to go west towards the city (I hope).

A tough decision about Bapedi. I can delay the settler one more turn, to get +1b for monarchy. But I decide to trust my 20AD plan, which seems good enough for the 45b I need.

22: Isand (5) (from the nomad) I am eager for monarchy, to relieve problems with waste, support, specials, etc. This city is intended to push me to the 45b mark.

23: OH THE PAIN!! I had everything lined up to get monarchy in 24AD. I am making 10b but need 11b. Isand can rush a courthouse (only 10s in this game) to halve corruption and get the extra 1b (I thought). But after play testing this, I find that the improvement does not take effect until 25AD. I guess you readers knew that.

So, I decided to use the Bapedi settler to found a city in an unplanned location, but near some spice, as an alternative way to get that last beaker. Did so, Trade advisor says +12b. Attitude advisor shows no problems. All is good (I thought).

Intombe (6)

But after my turn, while checking the demostats, I realized that 2 of my cities are rioting. My updated Attitude advisor now shows the problems. This has happened to me before, so I should have known better. (Peaster kicks self)

I will miss monarchy by two beakers.

ST has blocked my Archer again, with a different warrior on a mountain to the west. The top 5 screen shows Cheb is empty with an Elvis, so it is pretty clear where this unit came from. It appears Cheb is on a peninsula surrounded by whales. The entrance is a mountainous bottleneck, perfect for defense. Probably, the best I
can do is contain this area. For now, my Archer goes south to reveal some tiles, but it will probably return north to force ST to keep using the Elvis, and to contain him.

24: OH THE JOY!! Monarchy! I guess the riots don't affect production until 25AD either. I made it, with 0 beakers left over for the next tech (HBR, for belated defense). I set taxes at 70, since I have only 10g and need some quick RB dough for defense.

More Joy ! A warrior is at 29,25 - nearest city Hradec. It pops a hut = nomad. It heads south to view a special (buffalo) and may settle there, or maybe head back west for safety.

My Demo Stats are beautiful now. I am slightly behind in pop (80 to 90), but I have 6 cities to ST's 3, and now lead in the major stats. Of course it is still 24AD for ST, who may get a new govt himself this turn. Also, I have fallen to 2nd at Literacy, which probably means ST has learned Writing. I expect he will soon be making diplomats to bribe units and steal tech. I wonder if he is also aiming for Republic + celebration.

Screenshot after 24AD. The Archer moved south and back north. The warrior is probably the first one - there is another to the west, probably sitting in Cheb.

[Carolus Rex]

Contact!

As I told ST, my not so frequent visits in your threads are due to a visit of my wife (and not a lack of interest!).

We live in different countries presently and she'll stay until Sunday.

Seems I have a lot of catching up to do by then!

Carolus