P vs ST (not for ST)

[Peaster]

Over the next 1-2 turns, ST somehow brings a warrior to the mountain to the south (you can just see the tip) and cuts off my Archer's retreat. Then he makes a dip in Cheb (2 squares NWW of the Archer) to bribe it. I was expecting a dip eventually, but not that fast, and I thought I could still retreat.

If ST has this many units in the field, he either has monarchy, or support problems, or more than 3 cities. It is now 29AD [more logs soon], and I am thinking he has grown to about 6 cities, so he probably had more than 3 cities in 24AD.

[Peaster]

25: Wondering about how to pursue science while faced with dips. And how to deal with unhappiness, but still keep up in the arms race. I hope ST can't afford lots of dips and bribes this early.

26: ST has a size 3 city, so I suspect he is aiming for Republic-growth rather than ICS-growth.

Mpondo (7) on a buffalo, from the nomad.

27: A dip appears from Cheb earlier than expected. It may bribe my Archer next turn, for approx 80-90g, but I prefer that to throwing the unit away on a mountain-fortified warrior. Suddenly, I'm wondering how to defend my capitol area. Strange that one dip is such a threat.

I spot an Amer-warrior near Mpondo, so I must RB a warrior there to claim the adjacent mountain. I'm down to 3g. It feels like my position is falling apart, but maybe I can still form a perimeter in the West, with stacks, and then out-grow ST. I think time is on my side - a) with my better stats, I should grow faster; b) I think I am chasing more huts than ST, c) I'm getting about 30 arrows/t, and expect HBR + Writing in about 5 turns, and/or more gold.

Hut 9 squares from Ulundi = weeds.

28: HBR -> Writing. I have no clear tech plans yet, but want dips, to create some threats. Probably, I will go for trade or chivalry soon, but maybe poly or maps first, depending on how the war goes.

I have a warrior exploring to the south, which has found an ocean "27" extending from SE of Hlobane to Mpondo. Bad news for collecting huts there, but it may ease my defense.

ST bribed my Archer. I hope it cost him a lot.

29: I need to plan a defensive line north of Intombe, and hope ST doesn't have units in place to flank me. I can stack a w+ph on the mt before the dip arrives. I have to RB another w in Intombe anyway, since it is growing. This costs 16g out of my 35g. I am short on shields in these cities, but maybe I can transfer w's from Zim/Bap soon. I plan to get Writing in 32ad, and a dip from Bapedi in 33ad (or a horse, if it's needed first). Some relief soon via huts would be nice - eg gold or a good tech.

I have no clear defense for my scattered Eastern cities, but hope that my w's will block any direct advances until I can make more units. I will still go after huts. The good thing about having those cities scattered out is that ST can't get to them ALL very quickly.

The top 5 screen shows ST has an empty size 2 city with an Elvis and a happy citizen. I am no expert on happiness, but I guess this means ST has monarchy. Also, I saw a lot of units up north, so he'd be having major support problems otherwise. I'm guessing he
has about 5-6 techs, 6 cities and 9 citizens [I have 6 techs, 7 cities, 10 citizens + a settler near Ulundi, heading for a whale].

No idea about his stock of gold for bribing more of my units, but I hope I can win a bribing war in the West, since my capitol is there.

30: We have a standoff in the West, but if ST brings his dip in, he can walk past my little sentry stack, and I have no good defense. I don't think he can take any cities with just the Archer and a dip, but he can probably seize a mountain, or scout my entire capitol area before I can fight back.

Two pairs of warriors have made contact near Mpondo, but I think I've got the passes covered with one of my warriors. The other heads north for a hut, while Mpondo (on buffalo) races to make a horse (or maybe a dip).

31: Zim makes a settler, and the hut (17,41) = a nomad (1 turn before an Am-warrior got there!). The Ulundi settler is in place near a whale. I MUST be winning the growth war.

With 10 cities soon [in the equivalent of about 2400BC] I am pretty happy, but not sure my citizens will be for long. I need military techs to defend my gains, but need HG pretty soon to deal with the growth.

I am number one in most key demo-stats (AppRat, Pop, Mfg, Land, Productivity). I am behind in Mil.S, Lit and usually Fam Size.

But ST has made a stack just north of my stack. The Archer is visible. If the other unit(s) is his dip, I can't stop him from walking into the middle of my homeland. He probably doesn't know that I am short on attacking units, so I hope he will decline to enter. If he does, I will try to occupy the mts, at least. I expect Writing + a dip soon, and I can rush a horse, but those are really not enough to drive him out. I may need barracks + ellies.

[Peaster]

I just played 32AD. I popped a hut and got an advanced tribe, plus a city I was going to build anyway. I would be happy, except this caused 3 riots [and I really need gold/tech right now]. Also, this is the 4th nomad/AT I've gotten, from about 7 huts. IIRC the chances of getting a nomad/AT are normally 20 per cent, so this is pretty unusual luck. I am willing to tell ST and offer to replay the turn. What does the audience think ?

[StuporMan]

As a casual observer, newbie to these forums, and unfamiliar with the game format, codes of conduct, and what is generally accepted as good manners in this type of game, I would personally accept the good luck for what it is, good luck.

As far as I can tell the only requirement on huts was that you would disband any unit that was popped within 8 squares of your starting locations. Since this was not the case, go ahead and thank the hut gods for your fortune and move on. One way to look at it is this, if instead of getting tribes or nomads you had drawn barbarians or dead techs you would not have replayed the turn. Since you accept bad outcomes, you should also accept the good ones. The fact that these "good" outcomes also resulted in unhappyness problems should also make you feel better about accepting them as the benefit also comes with a drawback.

Just my $0.02,
Stuporman

[Peaster]

I guess you are right. I prefer good luck to bad luck, but don't want so much of it that it un-balances the game, or creates suspicion. Maybe if we play again, we can put limits on how many nomads you can get, or something like that.

[StuporMan]

I can understand your desire to have a balanced game! It is not fun to win when you have been given an unfair advantage. Your suggestion about limiting the number of nomads can work, another option would be to do the no hut rule that is in place during EL games. This would make the games longer, but would eliminate any chance of a hut decided matchup. That forces (almost) everything to be decided by player skill, and not hut outcome.

StuporMan

[Peaster]

32: Writing -> Warrior Code: One the very few strategy guides I found for duels/MP suggests the tech path, WC/Feud/Chivalry, to allow pikemen, knights and Sun Tzu. I decided to trust it, though in a SP game I would choose maps, poly or currency instead. The only American-made units I have seen so far are warriors and a dip, so I have no idea which techs ST has. I will make a dip in Bapedi in 2-3 turns, but have no clear plan for it.

Hut = Ngome (8) at 32,20 (see my previous post) It doesn't seem like a great site, but then my warrior finds a pheasant nearby!

Swazi (9) a child of Ulundi, near a whale. This city was planned, at least. The new cities set off 3 riots, but I was able to move militia in for 2 of them, and only needed an Elvis in Bapedi. I am suddenly short on warriors for defense and crowd control. But the Demo-Stats are great now... from 32AD to the present (35AD), we Zulus are usually first in every category except Military Service or maybe Family Size.

I start to play more conservatively now, thinking about setting up perimeters, staking claim to 60 per cent of the map, having some gold in reserve, etc. Given enough time, I may even be able to attack.

33: I have sent a lonely warrior south from Isand to 50,30. It's exploring what I think are the northwestern edges of ST's capitol area. In fact, its nearest city is now Kladno (ST's 3rd, I think, probably a child of Hradec).

34: My nomad in the south pops a hut and gets Mysticism (not great news, but OK). I was afraid of getting barbarians, but am starting to wonder if "villages only" reduces the chances of that (?).

Barracks started in Bapedi.

We have had stacked units facing off between Intombe and Cheb for a few turns. OK with me, since mine are warriors and his visible unit is an archer. I have also trapped one of ST's warriors on a peninsula to the south. This is no big advantage, except that I control the situation until ST decides to bring in help.

I am more worried about my scattered cities in the East, such as Swazi, Ngome, Isand and Mpondo. I am planning to place at least a warrior in each one, but have been tempted to explore a bit more, and Swazi is still quite empty. And not too far from ST's homeland.

Mpondo is in danger. ST has moved another unit onto 32,30 but only the warrior is visible. This is a problem for me only if the new unit is a super-unit or a dip, which could bribe my warrior for about 10g, and then probably capture Mpondo mountain.

I have a horse in Mpondo (it's preventing a riot, but an Elvis instead would be OK). A new warrior will be ready in 2 turns. How do I defend Mpondo ? Retreat and make a stack on the mountain ? Take my chances that there is no dip ? Rush a better unit in Mpondo ? I don't know the right answer, but will tell you what I did next time.

[Grigor]

Thanks for the logs! I am looking at both, so I am reluctant to make suggestions, but it is fascinating to watch the competing ideas.

In this narrowly defined situation, my first reaction would be to retreat and make a stack on the mountain, and then attack out with the horsie. Is there a better play?

[Peaster]

35: I played this turn before my previous post, but did just as Grigor suggested. My horse and warrior made a stack on the mt. I expected ST to move his stack to the hill square, and I would probably have attacked it with about 50-50 odds. Instead, he moved only 1 warrior there, which makes my attack unattractive.

This revealed his second unit to be a mere warrior. I suppose he will fortify the first and then bring the second one in. So, I gave up some ground needlessly, but at least the city is safe a while longer.

My lonely southern warrior is now at 52,32 and is closest to Slany, after just two turns being closest to Kladno. I have an idea where these two lie, but I really need more data to be sure.

------------------------------------------------------

BTW - I could not find civ2 visibility rules anywhere, but some quick playtesting (after 35AD) suggests:

1) When units are stacked, the last one to join is on top and visible to the opponent. It may or may not be visible to you because that depends on the order of play.

2) Diplomats are an exception. They are never visible in a stack AFAIK. I did no testing with vans, settlers, etc.

3A) Units within 1 square of your own units are visible. But visible enemy units remain visible (even if you have left the area) until they move.

3B) IIRC you can sometimes see units much farther away (even without advanced units, like planes) but I don't know a rule about this.

4) Units in the suburbs of a city are visible in the city screen, but not necessarily on the playing screen.

Does anyone know if these rules are correct?

[Peaster]

36: Tugela (10) on a peninsula to the southwest (built by the nomad stolen from under ST's nose). It riots immediately, so I give it an Elvis and RB a warrior next turn. I also RB a warrior for a Swazi riot. The lonely warrior finds a hut in ST's homeland - I thought it would be gone by now.

37: W.C. -> Currency. I've had second thoughts about WC/Feud/Chivalry, and decided I need some happiness in my Kingdom ASAP, so I change to Curr/Trade/Pots for HG. There is a good chance ST has managed his tech better than me and will get there first. In that case, I will switch to Lit/Phil/Poly/Mono for Mike's. So, WC was an error. But I suspected ST was on the warpath just a few turns ago. If I can get HG in peace, my position still looks quite good.

Lonely Warrior pops the hut and OH MY GOD! An American warrior is right behind it - AGAIN. Is ST guarding huts for some reason? The hut gives a nomad - AGAIN. I don't WANT any more nomads. I want good tech or gold. Even another Archer would be OK.

38: Umtata (11), and I move a warrior in by road from Hlobane to keep the peace. Ngome and Isand rioted when they grew, so they get Elvis's. I must RB warriors in Zim + Hlo (+ Intombe IIRC) since they will grow next turn. All this rioting is quite a headache, but my stats are better than 5 turns ago, so I guess growth is still basically a good thing.

39: Intombe is my first size 3 city in the game. I have to RB more warrior-militia for Swazi and Isand, and I am back down to 29g. We have 3 standoffs (near Intombe, Mpondo and Tugela) but ST seems to be following Lonely Warrior in the Southeast. I attempted to circle a lake and come back towards his cities, but ran into another lake. My nomad went further east to pop another hut, but ran into the main ocean (1). These guys may be in a little trouble.

40: When I opened the save this time, I was confused for a moment because there was no pop-up message about new riots!

ST did not follow the Lonely Guys this time, who found a whale. I suspect the other nearby huts are underwater, and there are no other specials in the near north, so they will build a city here next turn (which will probably bring the riots back). The site may be hard to defend, because it is closer to ST's homeland than any of my cities. But almost half of my cities started out this way. I guess I can afford to lose one if I can make ST pay enough for it.

BTW - I consider myself the defender in this position because I am ahead in growth, and have no need to attack any time soon. But if I could find a way to threaten ST with a few units I would do it.

I am starting production on 4 units in the homeland. These will be switched to vans when I get currency + trade in about 6 turns. Science is maxed out at 70 per cent, and all possible workers are on trade specials, for about 30b/t. I WANT HG!!!

Here's the minimap after 40AD. ST's homeland is in the bottom half of the white box. My Lonely Guys are east of that part of the box. Their city will help form a semi-circle of Zulu cities around the Americans.

[Peaster]

Dear Audience - The next few turns are fairly uneventful. I am aiming for HG in about 50AD and do not plan any other major operations until at least 55AD.

41: Curr -> Trade (121b). Lonsim (12) built in the S.E. Riots there, and in Zim and Hlo (these slow down my van plans a little). The Lonely W goes south for a hut that's not there. It must come back to Lonsim in 2 more turns to replace an Elvis and use the whale.

Ulundi makes a settler, which will build roads until I get HG.

42: Just improving my perimeter, beakers, etc. Starting to think about post-HG plans; another growth spurt in the East, maybe boats, dips and barracks for some raids. Maybe back to Feud/Chiv for STWA/Knights.

43: Have saved up 73g, mainly for rushing vans. I may have to use Bapedi for a van [tho it has a new barracks], since Umtata is so slow.

I could not see how to use my dip near Intombe, so it has gone south, where I have trapped ST's w. I retreat my own w, to let his come out a little, and get bribed a turn faster. If he has a faster dip, my plan may fail, but this gives my w a better chance to get away in that case. ST's w should probably stay where it is, except that he doesn't know about my dip.

The big difference between this duel and SP is - you know the opponent has a plan, and will act intelligently, but you generally don't know what he is up to, and you don't know what he knows. ST could have 10 elephants 2 squares from my cities right now, or he could be tied up with unhappiness and support problems (like me). He may be expecting me to attack first... with dread, or with glee...? He has seen my horseman and my phalanx, so he knows most of my tech. This may have discouraged him from attacking, so far, even though I really have only 2 horses, 1 phalanx, and warriors for defense.

If I get HG, maybe I'll go for map-making soon afterwards, to help my dips make an embassy, or to allow a surprise invasion.

[Straybow]

Impressive, Peaster! 12 cities in just over 40 turns.

[Peaster]

Tx, Stray. I can take credit for about 7 cities, but I got 5 from huts. I should mention that I am using ST's Civ2Admin program to find huts. This is a lot of work the way I do it. I have drawn a map, by hand, of the known world. It has all the specials, huts, and paths of my warriors on it. I update it after every turn.

44: We have some new warrior contact north of Ngome. Both are travelling alone, easy prey for dips, but I have no plans for a dip up there. So, I am not sure whether to block him or try to pass by [towards Cheb]. For now, I will jockey for a terrain advantage and hope he has no dip nearby.

45: Trade -> Pottery.

I fine-tune my plans for HG, and expect it in Hlobane in 51AD. I need 144-14 = 130b in 4 turns to get pottery on time. With science maxed at 70, I am making 34b/t now (enough for 136b). Also, to get the 4 vans on time, I need 87g within 2 turns, and at this rate I will have 88g [compare this with my little drama over monarchy]. Losing a turn is probably no big deal here, but I'd hate to be beaten to HG, especially after starting pottery.

46: 1 coin fell thru the cracks somewhere, but Umtata can switch a tile to ocean to compensate. I decide not to bribe ST's warrior in the south until my vans are paid for. It did venture out one turn, but retreated again. Maybe he saw my dip, using a ZOC trick.

My warriors are not getting any new "nearest city" info.
Apparently, the Americans are not expanding into some areas I'd expected (eg, south of Swazi).

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Peaster

This revealed his second unit to be a mere warrior. I suppose he will fortify the first and then bring the second one in. So, I gave up some ground needlessly, but at least the city is safe a while longer.

Nothing is easier than living life backwards - ask any stock broker!

IMHO you did the right thing... What if it had been a diplo? This being said with having only a fairly vague notion of your cities' locations (I have not downloaded any saves yet)...

Thanks for the generous logs!

Carolus

[Peaster]

47: I have the 37g (exactly) I wanted to spend on rushing 3 vans, but then realized that if I spend ALL my gold, my barracks will be sold before my 48AD turn. [The barracks explains the missing coin in my 46AD post. Doh!] Finally, I found a way to postpone one rush until 48AD. It will cost 6g more that way, but it is better than disbanding a unit or delaying HG. I raise taxes to 40 to pay for that.

48: I rush the Hlobane van for 31g and have 2g left. Now science is back to 70 to get Pots on time.

Mpondo grows and has a food shortage, so I must fire Elvis and accept a riot for 1 turn.

I finally get some "nearest city" info from my scouts: (27,7) is near Jachymov, and (37,29) is near Benesov. Somehow I get the feeling ST never really identified with being the Americans in this contest.

49: Pots -> Maps (made it ! - with 6 extra beakers): It was a tough choice between Maps, Lit, Poly and Feud. But I am eager to have a boat to get near Cheb with dips (embassy/tech theft) or phalanges (there is a great mountain near Cheb). I'd prefer to surprise him with a real attack, but I won't have proper units for some time. Unless 1-2 vet archers might do it?

Mpondo riots, but it makes a dip. The dip replaces a warrior in the stack, which returns for militia duty. I think the dip is invisible to ST (if my visibility rules above are correct).

My 4 vans converge on Hlobane with perfect timing, and will make HG next turn (if ST does not). This will release lots of warriors for sentry duty, infiltration and exploration. I can also return to ICS growth, and will try to double in size within about 12 turns. I do not yet have clear plans for another wonder or my tech path, but growth makes everything easier.

My poor dip is patiently waiting for the 23g it needs to bribe the pinned warrior in the south. I will raise taxes for a few turns, for this and for some rushes.

Contacts between warriors are now pretty routine, though our borders are not really well-defined yet. There has been NO combat, and we not even at war, but with the release of my horsemen (by HG) and maybe a vet archer from Bapedi, I expect some fighting soon. And if ST has no surprises, I expect the borders will eventually be favorable to the Zulus.

I expect ST has something cooking: Republic + Celebration ? Trade routes with an American island ? Pyramids + Mike's ? A massive sneak attack on Mpondo or Intombe?