OCC 2005 Game 1

[Peaster]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


At risk of teaching grandmother ...

The approach in EL games is to save just before popping the hut so that you can reload from the same point if the result is not legal.

RJM at Sleeper's

This grandma wants advice. I had heard this suggestion before, but reloading from the autosave feature seemed to work fine in my practice game. Now I know better.

I was hoping Ele would post a deadline for this round. Not sure if he meant Friday, or a week from the last 2000BC post, which would be Wednesday. Anyway, I hope he doesn't mind if I start discussing the saves.

The 4 saves so far look about the same to my untrained eyes. Grigor is closest to making a WoW, but seems a little behind in tech (10). Solo has the most tech (12.8), but is a little behind in improvements. RJM is in Republic, but is farthest from a WoW. Mine seems not quite as good as solo's (I have a temple, but lesser tech).

Question 1: My city won't celebrate until I raise lux to 50%. The other saves seem almost identical, but they celebrate with 30% to 40% lux. Is that because they are already celebrating, so they are getting more trade arrows?

Question 2: Was it a mistake to start changing rivered plains into forest, for more shields later on?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Peaster
Question 1: My city won't celebrate until I raise lux to 50%. The other saves seem almost identical, but they celebrate with 30% to 40% lux. Is that because they are already celebrating, so they are getting more trade arrows?

In a monarchy you typically have to raise the luxury rate quite high to start the celebration and then the extra arrows can maintain the celebration at a lower rate. In your case, I think you weren't celebrating when your city last increased in population. I think Solo was, and so managed to maintain it with the extra arrows. I lost the celebration when I revolted and couldn't get it back.

Originally posted by Peaster
Question 2: Was it a mistake to start changing rivered plains into forest, for more shields later on?

I think mistake is quite harsh. There is not a lot for the settler to do. The rivered forest gives you the extra shield with the trade arrow. Irrigated plains will give you the extra food. While the city is still small, it may be useful to have the flexibility to increase production from time to time. But when the city gets into its WLTPD celebration growth, it will be useful to have all the possible food resources. Of course you may have time to convert it back.

I will comment on all the other saves once Elephant has had a chance to post his results.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Elephant]

Originally posted by Peaster

I was hoping Ele would post a deadline for this round. Not sure if he meant Friday, or a week from the last 2000BC post, which would be Wednesday. Anyway, I hope he doesn't mind if I start discussing the saves.

As I said before, rounds are one week each from the first post, which was Friday. I hope to post something tonight after the kids go down. I don't mind discussion, and I apologize for being so late in the week. Spent most of today hanging off a ladder two stories up.

We could also discuss changing the next round to be 40 turns (1000BC to AD1), rather than 20 (to 500BC). Should be a bit more interesting as we seek to build wonders or start trade routes, maybe even WLTCD.

[solo]

My vote is for 40 turns next round.

If Elephant produces the best save again this time, maybe the rest of us should spend a little more time on our own moves! If "delays" produce quality results, them I'm all for them.

[Elephant]

OK, here's my contribution:

2000bc: 81g,35b,5t@17b/72b
[first question: pop huts or wait?
[check Civ2Plan: hut tech puts off Trade
[so NO HUTS till Trade
...1st Dip NE, 2nd back home or SW
Barb Archer heads south
1950bc: 81g,52b,5t
...RB Library 26g
...ARGH: two MORE huts found!
Library done
BRONZE: start Currency (Hor/Mas/Mys/Pot/War)
1900bc: 54g,0b,4t@25b/91b
Barb Archer back on western river
1850bc: 53g,25b,4t
Barb still heading north
1800bc: 52g,50b,4t
Barb going north
1750bc: 51g,75b,4t/84b
...chg 2.3.5
Barb north out of view
CURRENCY; start Trade! (Hor/Lit/Map)
1700bc: 55g,0b,7t@18b/112t
...chg 0.3.7 5t@25b
Chinese start GL (got Lit!)
Temple done
1650bc: 53g,25b,5t
1600bc: 51g,50b,5t
...PRB 1r 4g
Barb Archer reappears north of NW Dip!
1550bc: 45g,75b,5t
Barb heading SE now
1500bc: 43g,100b,5t/112b
...chg 3.3.4
TRADE; start Lit (Hor/Map/Mas/Mys/Pot/War)
1450bc: 48g,0b,9t@15b/126b
...CARDIFF supplies HIDES/Beads/DYE!!!
...chg 1.3.6 6t@21b
...Hut(29,23): Horse(NONE!!!) somebody northeast?
Barb southward
1400bc: 49g,21b,6t
...HORSE MEETS GERMAN SETTLER: Uncoop Emp: 0SP!,offer
Math for Tra(no),peace,Neut,gift Tra to Cord,Cur to
Enthus,CoL to Worsh,ally?protect selves,tribute?100g
...CELTS ARE STRONG!
...Horse goes north, sees roads (thought they were W)
Barb still south
1st: Dye (to Berlin!)
1350bc: 150g,42b,6t
Barb SW
1300bc: 151g,63b,6t
CELTS NOW INADEQUATE/BLUE!
...Hut(27,29): AT/AT/50g
...RB r1-5
...FoodBoxFull
2nd: Beads (to Leipzig)
WLTKD cancelled!
1250bc: 97g,87b,5t@24b
...CARDIFF size 5, only 18b?
...chg 5.5.0 to restart WL
Horse violates Leipzig - withdraw to CARDIFF
Barb ship west; Archer heading east
WLTKD!
1200bc: 105g,87b,126t
(back to STRONG)
...Hut(21,29): Horse(NONE)
...PRB r1-4, chg Grass to Forest for 10sh
Archer east, Barb ship north
3rd: Hides
1150bc: 40g,87b,126t,MOD
...Horse kills Barb Archer to west
Dip next to Barb ship, but it goes north
1100bc: 52g,87b,117t,INAD
...PRB r2-3
Barb ship NE around tip
1050bc: 14g,87b,117t,INAD
Babs start HG! (got Pot)
Barb ship coming SE!
4th: Hides
1000bc: 26g,87b,117t,WEAK

(hope you don't mind exhaustive logs...)

CARDIFF is size 5, working on caravans. It's making 10 shields, and set to 6.4.0 for taxes and WL. I've met the Germans to the north, found Leipzig and likely Berlin(in black), and 3 caravans are on their way to make trade routes. The NONE Settler is also starting on a trade road northward (a guess at this point; I'll test it out later).

Two wildcards are at work. One is a loaded Barb ship coming into the Celtic Bay to the northwest. They may be heading for a landing near CARDIFF, which could be an opportunity for a BarbLeader. There is a Dip west of CARDIFF and a Horse east, but the Settler and camels must also be protected. The next turn should see which way it moves.

There are also two German Settlers trying to come south near the northern river. If they can be influenced to settle there it might be an even better spot for trade routes. I've got a Horse and Dip in the Pheasant trees to keep an eye on things and see they might be pushed around.

There are 4 caravans in existence right now, so you also could recall the first three and build Marco Polo (it would take about 8 turns to get the furthest back, and CARDIFF could build one or two in that time). Also, I have not talked to the Germans in a while. They were Pathetic when last we talked, are Cordial now, and have at least Math (which means Masonry too). I've given them Tra, CoL, and Cur, but not Mon. They refused an alliance the first time, but might be more willing now that we are Weak.

[Elephant]

Now that I've played I just ran through the other logs. Grigor's extreme luck with huts makes his look very impressive. MP in 1600? That is MarketPlace, right? If that is MarcoPolo I'm blown away. I had my fourth caravan only in 1000bc, and three of them I sent north. RJM got Republic but can't celebrate, and just started on caravans. Peaster has Map, War, Math & Mas and half a Wow, but not Trade yet. Solo got Myst, Hor, Math, PT, and Mas and is promising Tra and MP soon.

Hmmm...

[rjmatsleepers]

I've downloaded Ele's save and will look at it later. So far, all of the saves have something going for them, so it might be a difficult choice. I'm fairly sure Grigor's MP is a market place, but his save is still pretty impresive.

40 turns next round is OK by me - AD 1 is a nice easy date to remember! What's the deadline for votes on which save to use?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Elephant]

Let's say 11pm EDT tonight (Friday) - just to keep to our weekly schedule. I think a lot's going to happen, but I'd be willing to go with 40. It will give wider divergence of the different games.

I'm still mulling over which 1000BC I like best. There's even something to be said for Solo's Republic option...

[Peaster]

Originally posted by Peaster
I propose that we settle on these rules, mostly collected from previous posts. If there are any objections, speak up now !!!

1) We are playing a best ball game. Within 2 days after the posting deadline, the players can talk and vote on the best save for the next turnset. [I prefer that we all use the same save, to promote better discussions].

2) For each set, the game leader [usually Elephant] will announce the results of the vote, how many turns to play, and a posting deadline [usually about 5 days after the vote].

Elephant - Did you see this post? I am all in favor of moving on, but 6.5 days to play and 0.5 days to discuss/vote seems a bit unbalanced.

[solo]

I have looked at Grigor's save and it is a marketplace in Cardiff and not MPE. His excellent result is similar to Elephant's, except for the fact that Elephant has an extra caravan, and that Elephant has a temple instead of a marketplace.

My early Republic continuation was posted as a curiosity and was not intended as a contender. I think it has some hidden potential, so I will continue with it myself playing that game in parallel with the "official version". By 1 AD, I'll have a good idea if this strategy was viable. I think my city site may provide more lucrative trading opportunities. We'll wait and see.

RJM's early Republic is off to a better start than mine and is at the better site, but my hopes lie with a much earlier MPE, and the benefits that this can bring. At the moment I think RJM may be wasting beakers on learning techs that can be traded for with MPE, and has fewer shields than Monarchy players have to use for making caravans. If his city could celebrate now, he could make up the difference by having more citizens, but he can't.

[Elephant]

Per Peaster's reminder, let's postpone the official decision till Saturday night, but the next play period will be compressed till Wednesday at noon (EDT). Discussion will then proceed till Friday evening. How's that?

Celebrating Monarchy gets you the extra trade arrows of Republic along with the three supported units and martial law of Monarchy. I have avoided much Early Republic play for that reason. Getting into Republic requires more infrastructure, which seems to require either shields or gold, and even the extra gold must come from deliveries that have to be built with shields (Barb Leaders and huts are undependable).

My strategy in this part of the game has been to avoid extra techs, even if they are going to be useful like Math, and focus on preparing the city for WLTCD growth. Solo makes a good point that I have not gotten a MarketPlace yet. I left that for last because I figured I could rush it when the first or second caravan arrives, or when I get a couple alliance gifts right after exploiting Marco Polo. I'm wondering if the latter will be a viable strategy, though, if there are other civs on this continent. They tend to demand war with each other if they have made contact before you contact them. If I were to keep my save, I think now I'd recall the third caravan to the Germans and try to rush two more for an earlier Marco Polo. Grigor's is not bad in that light (I don't have a way to open it here), I'm wondering what he was producing since 1400 though. I'm not crazy about switching to MGE either, but that could be a "learning experience". Peaster and Solo seem to have too much tech and are both locked into wonder production without caravans, and RJM just started caravans.

[solo]

[SIZE=1] Celebrating Monarchy gets you the extra trade arrows of Republic along with the three supported units and martial law of Monarchy. I have avoided much Early Republic play for that reason.

Yes, I agree, and the advantages of an early and robust Monarchy worked well in EL games, too. Probably the best time to switch to Republic is just prior to when we love growth is planned.

However, some other advantages of early Republic:

1) We love growth may start sooner.

2) When Republic is gifted to the AI early enough, they may learn a surprising number of techs that can be picked up via MPE.

3) Monarchy is an "off-path" tech, in that it may never be needed. Other techs may also be skipped resulting in much lower tech carrying costs later in the game.

4) Once trade develops, the large payoffs received by a larger city may help accelerate a "slow" Republic start past a "fast" Monarchy one.

These advantages are more pronounced in an EL game, since a celebrating Monarchy in OCC produces as many trade arrows as a Republic.

[rjmatsleepers]

I've looked at all the saves and it seems to me that they all have some good points. I'd like to propose that we each continue with our own save until AD 1. The differences in approach will then be more marked and a decision on which save to use will be easier.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Peaster]

I am OK with either voting today or with RJM's proposal to play further, though I'd slightly prefer to vote [since RJM can experiment with his 1000BC save, a la solo]. I will tentatively vote for Grigor's save. I note that he will have as many vans as Elephant in a few turns.

Question 1) Could someone expound on Ele's comment about "too much tech"...? I though collecting tech [eg math] was a major goal in OCC and EL.

Q2) Is celebration always a good thing? I am comparing solo's save (with c) to mine (without c):

solo: 26 arrows - 10 for lux = 16 useful arrows
mine: 20 useful arrows (none for lux).

I think solo is producing 2 more beakers than me, but I am producing 6 more gold per turn.

Q3) What are the relative values of gold, beakers, shields and food in early OCC ? [I find it hard to plan without some rough idea about values].

For example, Ele set his science bar at zero (so why the library?) and I guess he mainly wants gold for now - correct? If so, he could set lux to 0, quit celebrating, hire a taxman, and raise taxes from 14 to 16 per turn. He'd lose approx 1 food and 2 shields, but would get an extra 9 beakers per turn. Would that be a good idea?

Q4) Why can't RJM celebrate his Republic?

Q5) Ele complained (mildly) about building a WoW without vans. I agree that it locks you in, but is that so bad? [I am still mainly following Paul's advice on this].

[solo]

I'm for RJM's proposal.

1) Too much tech refers to tech carrying costs, which slow research. It's usually best to acquire a tech just before you really need it, to keep the total lower, especially when racing for a key early tech such as Monarchy, Republic or Trade.

2) A comparison will tell you if it is good at a certain time.

3) Beakers are needed early to get to key techs sooner. Once they are reached, gold is needed the most to start developing the city(s).

4) Load the save, try and see.

5) Depends on your situation. If you are delayed getting to Trade, like I was, there's nothing better to do than accumulate shields in a wonder. If you get Trade earlier, building caravans allows more flexibility.