"Si vis pacem, para bellum" scenario under construction

[curtsibling]

RTW is like Morrowind, my naughty gaming 'bit on the side'...

They are so good that I try and avoid playing them!

[KASHANKA]

Here is the Unit list for today:

Settlers
Engineers
Citizen Militia
Seleucid Phalanx
Ptholemaic Phalanx
Macedonian Phalanx
Peltasts
Thracian Peltasts
Velites
Hastati
Princepes
Triari
Regular Cohorts
Elite Cohorts
Roman Cavalry
Seleucid Heitaroi
Ptholemaic Heitaroi
Macedonian Heitaroi
War Elephant
Slingers
Archers
Siege Artillery
Ballista
Cataphractoi
Horse Archers
Pontine Bronze Shields
Oriental Infantry
Celtic warriors
Celtic warlords
Celtic cavalry
Gauls
Germanic warriors
Germanic warlords
Briton warriors
Dacian warriors
Cimbri warband
Liburne
Triere
Pentere
Heptere
Decimere
Transport flotilla
Chariot
Scythian cavalry
Chariot
Greek Light cavalry
Mercenaries
Armenian Infantry
Carthaginian Phalanx
Iberian Infantry
Carthaginian Light infantry
Iberian Cavalry
Carthaginian Heavy cavalry
Numidian riders
Jewish insurgents
Camel rider
Traders
Merchant vessel
Envoy

This leaves 4 slots empty... any good ideas?

[fairline]

Excellent and obviously well-researched list. Can I suggest Galatians as well; these fearsome Celts were by turns enemies and mercenaries of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. No self-respecting Successor Army would be complete without it's quota of elephants as well.

EDIT: just noticed 'War Elephants' in your list If you really want to go to town, you could have indian elephants with howdahs for the Successors and the much smaller (now-extinct) North African elephant for the Carthaginians. These were used as a weapon in themselves, being too small to accommodate a howdah with troops on board. A Carthaginian 'Sacred Band' unit could be added as well.

Perhaps add a little more flavour by renaming Roman Cavalry 'Equites'. You may also want to give the Successor phalangites more evocative names as well: 'Argyraspides' or 'Chalkaspides' for the Seleucid phalanx for example.

Pretty certain it's 'hetairoi' rather than 'heitaroi' BTW for Companion cavalry.

I can dig out some more Successor gfx if Boco is OK with this.

EDIT#2: The later Seleucids and Ptolemaic empires included imitation legionaries in addition to their Phalanx units. This could be another possibility if you're looking for a maxed-out units file.

[Heresson]

Galatians are a good idea.
If I may suggest something myself, at least Ptolemaids, sometimes (when they were seriously endangered by Seleucids) used locals as material for phalanx, while it was always made of Greeks/Macedonians.
(I think this should be reflected in the scn, it is pretty important).
I don't know how yet, though

[Leonidas]

Here are some Greek units I modified. Take a look and see if there is anything you can use.


Greek Phalanx units:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5932_Leonidas_Hoplites.gif

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5932_Leonidas_Hoplites2.gif

Greek Units I modified for Ellis' "Hellas" Scenario:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5932_UNITS.gif

[KASHANKA]

I DO like the idea of "imitation legionaires", I'm considering 2 unit E-files and event files, so the "Imitation legionaires" will definitally appear in the second one.'

Argyraspides, Chalkaspides and Leukispides weren't just ordinary Phalangistes. Normal Phalangistes were mercenaries or recruits, while Agryraspides were full time regular troops, always at the side of the king. They were a sort of his personal guard. While at peace, on the move or in "police actions" they were armed like hoplites (big shield, short spear), but in major battles they fought like phalangistes.
This gave me an idea... maybe I should include the Agryraspides as a very good, but REALLY expensive unit?

I'm also thinking about adding the Samnite unit to the game, they will probably be destroyed in a few turns from the start of the game, but they were formidable warriors and I belive they deserve a place in the unit file.
Currently I'm keeping them as a reserve (if nothing better or more usefull appears, I'll put in Samnites, if there will be 2 slots left I'll put in Etruscans)

As for the elephant... Indian/African is a good idea, sadly I don't have a graphic for the indian one. Currently I'm using the Favfly one. I just hate those little elephant graphics, where they look smaller than horses!

I'll attach the elephant graphic file, if someone can make the indian elephant out of it, I'll definitaly use them. I'm too weak as a graphic designer to do this.
The Indian elephant should be bigger, have smaller ears, and have slightly smaller tusks then the african elephant graphic I'm using.

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by fairline
Pretty certain it's 'hetairoi' rather than 'heitaroi' BTW for Companion cavalry.

I've just finished reading a historic novel about Alexander The Great, and they are called Heitaroi.

Also, the spelling of Ptholemy with an h sounds weird... But all my experience with him comes in Spanish texts, so it could be the more traditional spelling in english. (The MicroProse 'Rome' scenario does call them Ptolemaic greeks, though)

[beingofone]

Looking forward to another cool scenario.

[techumseh]

How about you, beingofone? Got anything new planned?

[beingofone]

Hey Techumseh,

I have a three pack ancient I am working on. I am really busy right now and these are gonna take awhile.
1 - The Etruscans - The West Awakens
ancient colinization and empire building
2 - The Med empires - starting at the Golden Age of Athens
3 - Alexander`s Empire

[Boco]

Good job on the list!

Looks like I stated my case too strongly about geographical limits on the phalanx units too strongly. Yes, the Pantodapoi (Asian phalanx) served important roles in Seleucid and Antogonid armies. Since these evolved from the original Macedonian phalanx, I'm suggesting that you limit the cities/provinces that can build them to ones that historically fielded them. You've probably got a solution in mind, but a combo of cost and civ-specific techs, coupled with having a limited number of high-shield cities is one possibility.

Some random questions:

• What are your thoughts on leaders? They tended to make and break armies during this era. It appears that you're assuming that they're integral to the units. Maybe with the AI, you have to do that.
  
• Obviously you've read up on the Romans and know that Roman legion underwent some very substantial changes during the 300BC-1AD period. At the onset of the period, they changed from a hoplite formation to a manipular one. They adopted the gladius sometime during the 2nd Punic war. Then there were the Marian reforms around 107BC. It looks like you've covered both manipular and cohort legions. Any interest in simulating the shift from hasta to gladius?

At one point I toyed with a closely related scen, the Diadochoi from 323-280BC (a dead project). My unit list was surprisingly close to yours (but without so many northern tribes). Here's an edited version. Since many of your names are too long for the city build and F2 lists, I threw in some ideas on the list, too. In many slots, your name is better.

Settlers                  Katoikoi
Engineers                 Sappers
Citizen Militia           Garrison
Seleucid Phalanx          Pantodapoi
Ptholemaic Phalanx	  Egyptians
Macedonian Phalanx	  Pezhetairoi
Peltasts                  Peltasts
Thracian Peltasts         Thracians or Thureophoroi
Velites                   Roriarii, Velites, or Hastati
Hastati                   Legio (H)? (i.e. Hoplite)
Principes                 Legio (M)? (i.e. Manipulii)
Triarii                   Legio (G)?  (i.e. Gladius)
Regular Cohorts           Legio (C) ? (i.e. Cohortis)
Elite Cohorts             Primus Cohortis?
Roman Cavalry             Equites
Seleucid Heitaroi         Xystophoroi
Ptholemaic Heitaroi       Xystophoroi
Macedonian Heitaroi       Hetairoi
War Elephant              Thèrarchia
Slingers                  Slingers
Archers                   Toxotoi, Sagitarii, or Levy Archers
                          Merc Archers
Siege Artillery           Katapeltai, Tormenta
Ballista
Cataphractoi              Sacae
Horse Archers             Mtd Archers, Hippotoxotoi
Pontine Bronze Shields    Agyraspids?
Oriental Infantry         Thanvabara, Indians or Levy Archers
Celtic warriors           Celts?
Celtic warlords           Soldurii
Celtic cavalry            Gallic Cav?
Gauls                     Gallic Inf?
Germanic warriors         Barbarii?
Germanic warlords         Soldurii
Briton warriors           Celts?
Dacian warriors           Getae (IIRC Fairline's Galatians)
Cimbri warband            Cimbrii
Liburne                   Limburnii?, Illyrians?
Triere                    Triremes
Pentere                   Quinquerines
Heptere	
Decimere	
Transport flotilla        Transports
Chariot                   Drepanèphoroi	
Scythian cavalry          Scythians
Chariot	
Greek Light cavalry	  Hippeis, Prodromoi, Longchophoi, or Tarentines
Mercenaries               Hoplitai?
Armenian Infantry	
Carthaginian Phalanx	  Sacred Band?
Iberian Infantry          Scutarii
Carthaginian Light inf    Numidian Inf?
Iberian Cavalry	
Carthaginian Heavy cav    Libyan Cav, Poeni Cav
Numidian riders	
Jewish insurgents         Zealots?
Camel rider               Camelry or Nabateans
Traders	
Merchant vessel	
Envoy	

Generic Lt Troops         Psiloi, Longchophoi, or Skirmishers
Fortress	
Siege Ship	
Merc Archer	
Levy Archer	
General                   Strategos
Satrap	
Scorpio
Celtic Streakers          Gaesati
Storm                     (sub missile at sea)
Disease                   (air, rng=1, mf=1, event-derived)

Many of the Greek terms come from Glossary of ancient Greek military terms or Military History Glossary (Ancient Period)

[beingofone]

Are you the same Boco that posts at The Wargamer?

[KASHANKA]

About eastern Phalangistes: With Ptolemaic phalanx (I'll stop calling him Ptholemy as I'm not sure the correct english form and call him Ptolemaios instead) its a mystery, as we only know that they were ofther formed of Egyptians. The most logical explanation would be that they were ethnical greeeks living in Egyptian cities like Heracleopolis or Alexandria.
Seleucid phalangists are without doubt military colonits. And this is exactly the main problem, as they weren't citizens of any exact city. For their service to the monarchy, the king "borrowed" them a piece of land free of tribute to cultivate as long as the soldier and his heirs would participate in training and wage wars of the said king as phalangistes.
Such "military colonies" were spread across the empire, concentrating in Mesopotamia, Minor Asia and Syria.
Saying all this I belive that geographical restriction will not be much needed, as Mesopotamia, Minor Asia and Syria will simply be the "high shield" regions in my scenario, as they were in history.

The Marian reformes will be simulated by:
A) The Leonardo wonder, which will start the game in Rome. (I'm not sure about the name yet, maybe Roman Legions? or something)
B) There will be a tech called "Reforms of Marius". Rome will get it automaticaly in 100 BCE during the change from the first to the second event and unit file, but the Roman player will be able to research "Reforms of Marius" sooner.
C) This will change all Hastati and Princepes into "Regular Cohorts" and all Triari into "Elite Cohorts".
D) Velites will be transformed into Auxilia automatically during the change of event and unit files in 100 BCE.

As for the change "from hasta to gladius":
Romans started using the manipular tactics and exchanged the long spear for pilum and short sword (except Triari) during the Samnite wars (343-341, 326-304, 298-290). My scenario starts in 281 or 280 BCE, therefore this change will not be simulated. Maybe after I finish this scenario I'll make a special "Rise of Rome" expansion pack starting in the 4th century BCE. But that is still to be left for the future.

As for the leaders:
This is a "Big scale" scenario, streaching for around 300 years! It is impossible for the engine to simulate individual leaders, unless we want to see Phyrros living up till the 1st century BCE. Therefore no individual leader units will be present. Maybe I'll make the effect of great leaders simulated through events or techs.

[Gagliaudo]

@Boko: good likns, indeed thanks!

@Kashanka: keep on!

[fairline]

Boco: another cracking unit list. You know you want to make that scenario really

Couple of notes:

The Galatians were Galatai to the Greeks (Gauls or Keltoi effectively). They were an offspring of the Celts who had invaded Greece and subsequently crossed the Hellespont in the 270's BCE IIRC to found Galatia which was centred on Gordium. The Getae, as you say, were a Dacian tribe.

Liburnae were Roman trireme warships rather than an Illyrian tribe.

Kashanka and you are both right in part about the progression of Roman arms: The hasta was replaced by the pilum and short sword for Principes and hastati during/after the Samnite wars and prior to the First Punic War, and with that change came the change to manipular tatics rather than the hoplite phalanx. The short sword in question was not the classic 'Roman' gladius hispaniensis but a similar type to the Greek short sword. The Gladius Hispaniensis associated with the later Republican legions was adopted in numbers after Carthago Nova was captured along with a bunch of skilled iberian swordsmiths in the Second Punic War.