Deity Strategy

[Grigor]

granite00 - I think you have confused the use of warriors in the early game - Monk is advocating using them for happiness control, not defence.

Warriors are not defensive units against barbs unless you have only one city (in that case all barb attacks fail). If you have fewer than a certain number of cities (I think ?? 7 ??) you will get a defensive bonus versus barb attacks, which could lead to a vet warrior fortified in a city on a river actually surviving for a turn or two.

But the real point here is that Monk (among others) is essentially recommending playing with **no defensive units** in the early game.

Barb defence consists of the following strategies:
(1) explore a lot so you can see them coming
(2) plan to rush a horse and attack them first
(3) after Writing defend with one diplomat strategically placed
(4) if all the above are of no avail, empty the city and pay tribute
(5) and if they sack your city it really isn't so bad - you can bribe their units to become a NONE army, and bribe back the city itself at you lesiure.

There are other seemingly counter-intuitive strategies in the opening including the size 1 settler strategy (your only city will not disband upon building a settler at size 1, so you can save part of your food box by growing slightly less quickly). My personal key to efficient early civ building is as follows:

** no roads before Trade**

This is pretty radical. But every time I try it I get my civ going faster, usually shaving off 4 turns by the monarchy switch.

[Bloody Monk]

Grigor
Triple-plus-excellent!!!

Thanks for catching that and making such a good case.

granite00
I have played many a game, with delightful results, with no or almost no units in the original pod of cities...after switching to Republic. The initial units are for martial law and when that is no longer relevant, they are disbanded.

This strategy works in Single Player. Against other humans it would be folly, but against the AI, Grigor's points show the way.

Also, I don't research Horse early in the game, usually. One can get them from Huts if you explore extensively in the openning phase. That means before founding the first city and up to the first tech from huts, after that, you should wait on more hut tipping until you have Monarchy. Getting to Monarchy soonest is the first priority.

Monk

[Grigor]

After posting that dissertation on skimpy defence, I played the March 2005 OCC game. I got hammered by barbs and lost two settlers. My lone city did, as advertised, survive, but I had no development and my game was slowed down tremendously.

So the choice of defensive methods depends, as does much in this world, on one's risk tolerance.

[granite00]

Grigor,
Your point about not having any defensive units really surprised me, but I recall many games where barbs rarely appeared until much later. However, running into an aggressive AI bent on challenging you is much like what you experienced in the March 2005 OCC game...luck of the draw. I haven't played many games where I was the only civ on a continent.

One point I failed to make clear in earlier posts is that in my quest for defensive units, those units are always intended to serve as militia for "happiness control".

Have you truly had much luck in using a diplomat against barbs? I would think it would be difficult having the dip in the right place at the right time.

Regarding no roads before trade, don't roads help in getting new settlers out to the edges of your expanding empire quicker?

[Grigor]

granite00 -

The best defence against the AI is a good offence. Horse are vastly better than phalanx unless you have enough rivers. The point is to separate your needs. A defensive unit is best placed in a defensive stronghold, which is not necessarily your city location. Happiness control is best executed 10 shields at a time.

Regarding no roads before trade, I get trade by 1750, so the size of the empire is rarely an issue. Until the civ is larger than 6 cities, roads are a doubtful benefit. The 2 extra road-building turns are essentially 2 turns with slow city growth and lower science, and before Monarchy that is rarely a good call. Exceptions of course occur - for instance a start with no science squares.

[Bloody Monk]

An Interesting Twist on Defense

solo showed the way on this point...

Of all the possible ways to defend it turns out that the most efficient is by using Marco Polo/contact to massage AI attitudes. If you are the Supreme Civ and you keep the nearby AI Receptive or better (sometimes Uncooperative, too!), the AI will not attack your city even if the city is empty of defenders. This fits well with the previous discussion about disbanding supported units after switching to Republic so that most of your cities do not have defenders.

(This does not work -v- Barbs and applies to games using v2.42.)

The diplomat defense rests on your having explored (revealed) the surrounding map so that you can see any Barb spawns. If an existing dip is not close enough to do the job, then you rush one at the point of danger and bribe Barbs to act as defenders. And...Grigor's point 5 is very well taken. Losing a city to Barbs may be a very good thing, depending on the other factors.

Monk

[debeest]

granite00, I think Grigor has pretty much completely stated the answer. Exploring gives you a heads-up when the barbs are coming your way, and then you buy a horse or a dip for "defense."

N35t0r, I'm curious what you meant by "[barb archers] only get attack bonuses (not defense bonuses) due to terrain". I know that they have defensive strength of only 1. I know that, depending on game level, they have an attack bonus (or penalty), which is x1.5 at deity. Are you saying that defensive terrain gives them no bonus?

[rah]

I think he was just referring to their normal defense of 1 instead of the 2 given players/ai archers.

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by debeest
N35t0r, I'm curious what you meant by "[barb archers] only get attack bonuses (not defense bonuses) due to terrain". I know that they have defensive strength of only 1. I know that, depending on game level, they have an attack bonus (or penalty), which is x1.5 at deity. Are you saying that defensive terrain gives them no bonus?

Difficulty. Not terrain, difficulty.

In deity, barb units get a +50% to attack IIRC, which has gone up from an attack penalty in Chieftain... while they do not get any defense mods... (this makes it better to defend from them on the earlier levels...) which is, I think, why most people who are moving up the difficulty scale don't realise how useful to be the attacker is - Especially early on.

[Senethro]

When they refer to the Great Library at this beginning of this thread where paradigm forming strategies have been stored, where might I find this information?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Senethro
When they refer to the Great Library at this beginning of this thread where paradigm forming strategies have been stored, where might I find this information?

The starting point is the initial post in the thread two above this one which has a link to the original index and to a revised index. After that you just follow the links that interest you. Enjoy.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Elephant]

Look for the TOPped thread "Great Library Index #2" by SlowThinker in this forum.