Atomic Eagle II: The Price of Freedom Development

[fairline]

I bet you pick holes when you're watching Star Wars or Lord of the Rings at the movies

It's probably best not to worry about these things Steph - this is a fantasy scenario and I'm sure it'll be a hoot to play

BTW, the Sabre wasn't better than the Mig-15; the US pilots were better trained, the Sabre was more rugged and the Soviet pilots were ordered to be cautious so as not to get captured in a War in which they were officially not fighting.

[curtsibling]

I see the Atomic Eagle scenarios as having a good dose of 'Sky Captain' or 'Rocketeer' to them.

A lot like 'Saving Private Ryan' meets Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis'!

Good old 1940s radio serial fun and games, with boosted technology and 'large' drama!
That kind of fun is golden if it can be brought out in any scenario.

Let's not worry about the whys and werefores, because pitting
these two jet-powered titans against each other is good CIV2 fodder!

I have high hopes for this one...

[Tigey]

Arguments about the start-up logistics and realism aside (which in the spirit of the first AE, can be put aside for the sake of fun), my only 2 cents, is to advise that you don't make Germany too much of an "invulnerable" overwhelmingly superior invading superpower, as you've sorta been hinting at. At the start of the scenario, this sort of portrayal is fine, probably even desireable from a sense of "fun" perspective:up:, However, as the game progresses, a number of plausability problems would plague a scenario with such an overwhelming enemy...


I'm talking mainly from experience in playing Red Alert 2, which had a rather similar sort of scenario (a less than wholly serious scenario of the overwhelmingly powerful USSR invading the US). Suspension of disbelief is certainly possible at the start, indeed, is a good thing in helping to envision such a daring and overwhelming invasion:up:, with the player as the embattled underdog.

Now that's fine in the early game, where you're fighting desperately against overwhelming odds to hold the line: However, the problem begins to appear as the game begins to progress, and you gradually begin to take back territory, and expel the invaders, you get a sense of stalemate, similar to that of the Battle of Britain/Pelenor Fields: Yes, you've survived a huge attack, but you haven't actually "won the war", and have suffered huge damage and losses. This situation would probably not be a very satisfying conclusion for most players.

The sheer fact is, that even if an invaded US, that has just fought desperately for it's survival, managed to pull through, it would be in no position to launch any kind of counterattack across the Atlantic to "win" the war. At most, a megapowerful Germany might offer a truce on it's own terms. Chances are it would simply try again next year with even more powerful super luftwaffe weapons. The only plausible "satisfying" conclusion for players (ie: with the consequences of the player's repulsion of the invasion being the winning the of war, not just the battle), would be for the player to abstractly develop "superweapons" or something (like in AE 1 with the Amerika Bomber), but that didn't feel very plausible in Red Alert 2...



Edit: I'm sure this doesn't make any sense, but it's Friday night, and if you're coherent at this hour, than you've had a boring night

[curtsibling]

Any repulsion of the invasion could end in trouble for the reich back home,
as this could have been a big gamble for Rommel...(the scen's Axis leader)

Catching the enemy general and hearing of uprisings in Europe might be
a good enough reward for the player's noble efforts,and don't forget, the
Axis will be throwing a few curveballs, if I know Harry's design skillz!

And if that fails, leaving it open for the next chapter is OK by me!

'The Cruel Atomic Sea' anyone?

[Harry Tuttle]

Ah yes, the suspension of disbelief. I watched "The Transporter 2" last night and I have to tell you I wish I had a better sense of it. Don't go see the movie, it's very bad...

@ Steph: Anyways, as we know, the scenario has a bit of the fantastic thrown in. Mainly, because, it's so out there in realism (Nazi's surviving WWII, invading America, the occult).

So, in order for there to be a good stomping war in another place besides the same European battlefield, as we've seen in every other German WWII scenario, we have to give a little bit of faith in Doenitz after 1941. Also, we have to stop thinking of the US Navy as being an unstoppable juggernaut. Sure, they won some major engagements in the Pacific war, but nonetheless these battles were decided by very narrow means. And who's to say, that at the Battle of Rio DeJaneiro in March of 1947, the US Admiral in charge didn't screw up?

As for the coups in South America, we saw in the intial mission that the coups did involve fighting between the Nazis/Fascists guerillas and the Allies. It was a covert operation, so yes, the Allies did know about the problem and did try to solve it.

As for the aircraft involved, I think you're right in the regard to the BF109Ts. They were obsolete by this time. I think the German stock fighter would be another design besides the Ta183 in 1950 as development into jets had a number of designs out there, but that's neither here nor there for this scenario.


@Tigey: Since this is the second installment of the series there will be a sense of "stalemate" once you do finally defeat the Germans in North America, but that's only because the game won't warrant a huge world map that's playable to the extent of taking the fight back to Europe. The third part of the series, which will involve the British, will cover the "End Game". AEII will be a slugfest, focusing on strategy for the player.

I don't agree with the idea that their wouldn't be a counterattack after North America. The Allies would need to end the fight, once and for all, because, as you said, the Nazis would still be around to try again. Take the Russians for example. Did the Soviets get the Germans on the run and then say: "Well, we're in Warsaw, they're just about defeated, let's forget this war and sue for peace." No, they took it to the Germans and wiped the Nazis off the map.

Trust me, the third installment will give the player the chance to counterattack in a very meaningful way.


Let's just remember that this is a fun scenario with plenty of realism thrown in for historical accuracy. It's gonna have a whole bunch of neat stuff in it that you would read only in comic books. It's entertainment after all!

[Tigey]

@Tigey: Since this is the second installment of the series there will be a sense of "stalemate" once you do finally defeat the Germans in North America, but that's only because the game won't warrant a huge world map that's playable to the extent of taking the fight back to Europe. The third part of the series, which will involve the British, will cover the "End Game". AEII will be a slugfest, focusing on strategy for the player.

I don't agree with the idea that their wouldn't be a counterattack after North America. The Allies would need to end the fight, once and for all, because, as you said, the Nazis would still be around to try again. Take the Russians for example. Did the Soviets get the Germans on the run and then say: "Well, we're in Warsaw, they're just about defeated, let's forget this war and sue for peace." No, they took it to the Germans and wiped the Nazis off the map.

Ah, I didn't realise there would be a part 3 (yay! btw). That's fine then, my main concern was that you'd create a fantastic scenario, and because of the "story limitations" or whatever, the ending would either be somehow unsatisfying for the player (ie: stalemate, with no end in sight), or some implausible victory, with events appearing at the end claiming a US that has few allies and has had the tar whipped out of it by the invasion, miraculously rebuilt its fleets and armies offscreen, and somehow lead an invasion of Europe... Probably overreacted a bit, and with a part 3, that's virtually a moot point...

[curtsibling]

Each episode is a part of an overall drama - I like that kind of thing!

[techumseh]

Originally posted by curtsibling
I see the Atomic Eagle scenarios as having a good dose of 'Sky Captain' or 'Rocketeer' to them.

A lot like 'Saving Private Ryan' meets Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis'!

Good old 1940s radio serial fun and games, with boosted technology and 'large' drama!
That kind of fun is golden if it can be brought out in any scenario.

Let's not worry about the whys and werefores, because pitting
these two jet-powered titans against each other is good CIV2 fodder!

I have high hopes for this one...

My sentiments exactly.

[Sarsstock]

Say Harry, I remember before the crash you had comisioned me to come up with some shield designs for generic Central American nations and such, as well as a shield for the invading Germans. Now in the end I believe you went with a shield of your own for the Germans, but did you need any of those redone in the button shield format as the Mexican shields you had asked me to make?

[Harry Tuttle]

Actually I do Chris. I'd like shields done for the US infantry and US armored vehicles. Conversely I'd also like the same done for the Germans, including a Luftwaffe button. The US airforce looks great with the predominant star over bar so that'll be left the same. For the Germans I'd like silver on black, looking as mean as possible.

If you please good sir.

[Harry Tuttle]

Alright, I think it's time we gave some thought to pre-empting any game mechanic problems before they start. I still haven't converted the map over to ToT yet, so I think this is a good time to head off any of those nagging problems that crop up, such as:

1. The first turn money bug.

2. Who should start the scenario off first, the Germans or the US?

3. I have all those intemediary food route cities sitting about 15 tiles off of the southern coast of Mexico, how can I prevent them from having any interdiction problems from units? Will impassable terrain work? How about for bombers? Paratroopers?

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by typhoon
@ Harry

If you're still needing a P-80, I have this little knock-together from the works of Jimmy, Gareth and Curt. You know the drift, any mistakes or ugliness contained therein is solely the responsibility of one Typhoon.

I think those planes rock! I will definately have them in the game. Thank you.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Alright, I think it's time we gave some thought to pre-empting any game mechanic problems before they start. I still haven't converted the map over to ToT yet, so I think this is a good time to head off any of those nagging problems that crop up, such as:

1. The first turn money bug.

Don't know. I think there's a hex edit fix.

2. Who should start the scenario off first, the Germans or the US?

Germans. Otherwise it just wouldn't feel right.

3. I have all those intemediary food route cities sitting about 15 tiles off of the southern coast of Mexico, how can I prevent them from having any interdiction problems from units? Will impassable terrain work? How about for bombers? Paratroopers?

Not sure what you mean?

[Sarsstock]

Well Harry I will get right on that unit shield request. I will use some of the designs you originally posted for AE2 in making the German silver and black button shields. As for the Americans I will try to make up as many historical division shields as possible, are there any specific ones you might need? 101st and 82nd airborne perhaps? I'm also finally making headway on that title screen I promised about a year ago, I'll submit two different versions for you to consider.

Now finally I have a question about armored trains and rail guns. Specifically, will there be any? A nation such as America with such a vast rail network could make good use of hundreds of militarized armored locomotive I would think.

[Harry Tuttle]

@Tech: There's a huge swath of land that I added to include "off the map" cities for extra bonuses for the game. It's currently holding about 30 intermediary cities for the dynamic food routes that I formed. My main concern is that the human or computer will start scouting out this territory and sit on the very fragile city food production tiles next to the intermediary cities. A disruption would create a famine in the cities, eventually cutting the food route. So I want to keep everything and anything away from these intermediary cities.

The Germans are a good bet for starting off, but how can I eliminate the problem where the scenario is started and 15 minutes of enemy AI movement ensues?

@Chris: Specific unit buttons aren't really needed for the divisions since there won't really be a difference between the units on the board. For example, there won't be two Sherman tanks of the same value for two divisions. I guess a nice identification for armored units, infantry, elite infantry, and the airforce would be nice. A symbol on top of the American button or slightly on the bottom, like with the Mexican button.

Armored trains could make an appearance I suppose, but how to keep them on the tracks? Are you referring to the Gustav gun I had that was an immobile unit with shells popping up on top of it?